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Future of Trek Discussion of future Trek projects.

View Poll Results: Do fans want the prime timeline back?
I'm a fan and I want the Prime timeline back. 195 56.20%
I'm a fan and I don't want the Prime timeline back. 57 16.43%
I'm a fan and wouldn't mind if it came back. 38 10.95%
I don't care, just give me Trek! 51 14.70%
I don't know. 6 1.73%
Voters: 347. You may not vote on this poll

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Old December 6 2013, 12:01 AM   #751
Greg Cox
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Yes,because STiD was all about Khan being obsessed with revenge on Kirk because Kirk marooned him on Ceti Alpha V years ago, causing Marla McIvers to be horribly killed by a vicious Ceti Eel. And because STiD was all about a middle-aged Kirk coping with a mid-life crisis and coming face to face with the son he never knew. And did I miss the part where Kirk stumbled onto the Botany Bay and Khan seduced Marla? And who played Saavik in STiD again? Or David Marcus?

And, of course, my favorite parts of WRATH OF KHAN are the firefight on the Klingon homeworld, the terrorist attack on Starfleet HQ, the assassination of Christopher Pike, and the evil Starfleet admiral conspiring to start a war with the Klingon Empire. And Scotty sneaking aboard a top-secret Federation warship, of course. I can't believe how STiD ripped all those scenes off!

A couple of (admittedly unsubtle) homages do not a "retread" make, not when the plots of the two movies are totally different.
If they did a shot-for-shot re-make with a 150 million dollar budget, only then would you see the similarities. Of course, that would simply be "an homage" and a "needed update." They ripped off II and III.
I strongly disagree. See my added comments above about how the themes of the two movies are completely different.
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Old December 6 2013, 12:02 AM   #752
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
Harvey wrote: View Post
Let's assume for the sake of brevity than I'm familiar with TWOK and TSFS. What's your point?
The point is that they lifted full scenes, famous lines from Star Trek movies to make this. Because they felt a need to do Khan rather than take the time to come up with something original (re: they consult or hold hostage a person from another planet). Because the conflict of "needs of the many" versus "the rules" is lifted straight from Star Trek II and III.
"The needs of the many" is established in Trek lore as a Vulcan axiom. It's been used in Voyager and Enterprise.
Because Carol Marcus is introduced in a story that features Khan. Because Khan is still seeking revenge and claiming he is superior.
Khan wants revenge against different people for entirely different reasons. The personal Kirk/Khan beef that WoK is centred around is absent from ID. In fact, Khan goes on two revenge sprees in ID, both times when he believes his crew to be dead. Otherwise he's merely working to free them.
The Joker stories are not, in any way, the same. You could describe the plot of TDK and never know it's a Batman movie if you had seen only Batman.
No, you couldn't. The entire Batman cast together? A baddie who laughs manically, dresses like a clown and makes it very personal with Batman?

A former ruthless dictator is found and blackmailed into building weapons of war. Does that sound like WoK? How about his crew being held hostage? And Kirk realizing that getting revenge isn't the way to go?

Where are the themes of ageing in ID? Kirk goes from being miserable on his 50th to "feeling young again" - where in the ID analogue?
The themes. The lines. The characters and the fact they show up at the same time. The same situations dealing with life and death and Spock and Kirk viewing the world differently.
The same characters show up at the same time? Ditto every reboot of everything, ever. Carol is there, just like Fayora, Jor-El, Lois, Perry White and a ton of others are all in Superman II, Smallville and Man of Steel.
Those are some of my points. I was having a sense of humor with other posts.
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Old December 6 2013, 12:12 AM   #753
Greg Cox
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
That's where Genesis is. No, the plots are not the same. But the themes, the dialogue, the situations that show the familiar characteristics of the characters, all are the same. They made too many "nods." It's not overblown. It's exactly what this movie was. I have said otherwise, but upon watching it again, they finally re-did Khan.
Just to belabor the point, that's like saying that SKYFALL is a remake of GOLDFINGER because they brought back the old Aston-Martin and Bond still likes his martinis shaken, not stirred.

Of course, the "familiar characteristics" of the characters are the same. They've been the same for nearly fifty years. That's what makes them beloved, iconic characters. And, honestly, the business with Kirk bucking authority and fudging the rules was part of his character long before the second movie. And Spock was willing to sacrifice himself for the good of the many in any number of old TOS episodes.
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Old December 6 2013, 12:14 AM   #754
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
And Spock was willing to sacrifice himself for the good of the many in any number of old TOS episodes.
The Immunity Syndrome, anyone?
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Old December 6 2013, 12:32 AM   #755
Greg Cox
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Oh, one more thing: Khan touting his superiority in both films is no different than the Joker laughing manically or Lex Luthor plotting against Superman or Blofeld stroking a white cat or Moriarity being described as "the Napoleon of Crime."

Every classic villain has certain distinctive character traits. But, again, just using the same villain again doesn't automatically make a movie an unimaginative rehash or whatever.

Of course Khan is touting his genetic superiority again. That's what makes him Khan. You might as well complain that Dracula is drinking blood again.
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Old December 6 2013, 12:41 AM   #756
HaventGotALife
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Edit: And I would argue that WoK wasn't about "war" at all. It was about revenge and the past coming back to haunt you and regrets and sacrifices and so on. Yeah, presumably Khan would have caused trouble with the Genesis Device once he got his revenge, but the movie really wasn't about saving the Federation from Khan or any upcoming war with the Federation. It was more of a personal drama.

STiD, on the other hand, is very much about war and terrorism and conspiracies--and not at all about Kirk confronting his own past.
"Dear lord, you think we're intelligent enough to...What if this were used where life already exists?"
"It would destroy such life, in favor of its new matrix."
'It's new matrix?! Do you have any idea what's you're saying?"
"I was not attempting to evaluate the moral implications, Doctor. As a matter of cosmic history, it's always been easier to destroy, than to create."
"Not anymore! Now we can do both at the same time! According to myth, the earth was created in six days. Now, watch out! We'll do it for you in six minutes!"
"This has to be some sort of mistake."
"Mistake?!? We're all alone here! They waited until everyone was on leave to do this!"
"It seems clear that Starfleet never inte---"
"I've tried to tell you, that scientists have always been pawns of the military!"
"Teaming up with me for bridge after dinner?"
"Maybe."
"What is it?"
"Every time I have dealings with Starfleet, I get nervous. We are dealing with something...that...could be perverted into a dreadful weapon."
Like Khan himself, another creation of our genius that out-paced morality, genesis is the perfect weapon in this movie. The next movie highlights the theme even more by getting the Klingons involved.

It doesn't matter if it's cast-iron weapons or drones, scientific discoveries become used for military purposes.
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Old December 6 2013, 12:45 AM   #757
2takesfrakes
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Not only does this fan want The Prime Timeline back, I do not see what else can be done. Let's face it: to general audiences, STAR TREK is Kirk ... Spock ... Bones. That's the Identity of the Product, right there. I suspect another crew in another millenia is just not going to cut it. It's got to be TOS on the little screen, once again. As for "cannon" issues, is it really that hard to avoid going back to Ceti Alpha V? I mean ... is it necessary to revisit Mudd's Women? Just have them keep going forward, into new areas of exploration and adventure. And I am not, at all, above having the Big 3, here, resexed Battlestar Galactica Style, either! In fact, I'm convinced that is a very real and viable solution to returning STAR TREK to the small screen. If CBS wants STAR TREK, it's got to be with the TOS characters. Praise You, Jesus, my beloved TNG will never have to experience a reboot or recasting, or any of that nonsense, being tucked away into the spinoff category. It was a far superior product and really, the franchise should've stopped there. But, then ... there's all that popcorn at stake ...
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Old December 6 2013, 12:52 AM   #758
Greg Cox
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Okay, I'll concede that there's some discussion about the military implications of the Genesis Device, but I would still argue that the movie was much more about Khan's personal vendetta against Kirk--and Kirk's personal angst over growing old, etc.

There's actually very little emphasis on "Ohmigod, we have to stop Khan before he launches a devastating attack on Earth." (And the danger of war with the Klingons doesn't figure into the plot at all.) The plot is never really focused on stopping Khan from conquering the Federation or whatever, but on a very personal, intimate duel between two old enemies. The Genesis Device is basically just a plot device to give Kirk and Khan something to fight over. It's not really what the movie is about.

STiD, on the other hand, places all the war and terrorism and evil government conspiracy stuff front and center, and has nothing to do with Kirk's midlife crisis or Khan's obsessive vendetta against Kirk.

They're very different kinds of stories.
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Old December 6 2013, 12:55 AM   #759
CorporalCaptain
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
Edit: And I would argue that WoK wasn't about "war" at all. It was about revenge and the past coming back to haunt you and regrets and sacrifices and so on. Yeah, presumably Khan would have caused trouble with the Genesis Device once he got his revenge, but the movie really wasn't about saving the Federation from Khan or any upcoming war with the Federation. It was more of a personal drama.

STiD, on the other hand, is very much about war and terrorism and conspiracies--and not at all about Kirk confronting his own past.
"Dear lord, you think we're intelligent enough to...What if this were used where life already exists?"
"It would destroy such life, in favor of its new matrix."
'It's new matrix?! Do you have any idea what's you're saying?"
"I was not attempting to evaluate the moral implications, Doctor. As a matter of cosmic history, it's always been easier to destroy, than to create."
"Not anymore! Now we can do both at the same time! According to myth, the earth was created in six days. Now, watch out! We'll do it for you in six minutes!"
"This has to be some sort of mistake."
"Mistake?!? We're all alone here! They waited until everyone was on leave to do this!"
"It seems clear that Starfleet never inte---"
"I've tried to tell you, that scientists have always been pawns of the military!"
"Teaming up with me for bridge after dinner?"
"Maybe."
"What is it?"
"Every time I have dealings with Starfleet, I get nervous. We are dealing with something...that...could be perverted into a dreadful weapon."
Like Khan himself, another creation of our genius that out-paced morality, genesis is the perfect weapon in this movie. The next movie highlights the theme even more by getting the Klingons involved.

It doesn't matter if it's cast-iron weapons or drones, scientific discoveries become used for military purposes.
No, sorry.

The drone strike plot in STID is specifically allegorical to the present day real world, in the context of the War on Terror. The STID torpedoes were intended to target a single man in something analogous to a surgical strike. Kirk's comments about how Harrison deserved a trial comprised a direct commentary, specifically on today's world.

On the other hand, the Genesis torpedo was much more analogous to indiscriminate apocalyptic weapons of mass destruction, laced with Biblical overtones of both Revelations and Genesis, as all but explicitly voiced by McCoy prior to Khan's attack. In no way is TWOK's Genesis torpedo allegorical of the War on Terror.

If this is the standard for one thing ripping off another, you may as well scream "Plagiarism!" every time the ship fires photon torpedoes.
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Old December 6 2013, 12:57 AM   #760
Greg Cox
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
Praise You, Jesus, my beloved TNG will never have to experience a reboot or recasting, or any of that nonsense, being tucked away into the spinoff category. It was a far superior product and really, the franchise should've stopped there.
And that's where fandom starts to splinter. TOS is still my touchstone where STAR TREK is concerned, and I'd argue that DS9 was as good or better than TNG . . . .
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Old December 6 2013, 01:01 AM   #761
2takesfrakes
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Mister Cox ... I disagree with you completely on the DS9 thing! Completely disagree with you. However, I did purchase one of your Khan books, where you go into detail over Khan's life on Ceti Alpha V. We will see how it holds up to the 2takesfrakes White Glove Test, as I peruse this yarn of yours ... spun for our entertainment ...
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Old December 6 2013, 01:29 AM   #762
HaventGotALife
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Coach Comet wrote: View Post
HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
Edit: And I would argue that WoK wasn't about "war" at all. It was about revenge and the past coming back to haunt you and regrets and sacrifices and so on. Yeah, presumably Khan would have caused trouble with the Genesis Device once he got his revenge, but the movie really wasn't about saving the Federation from Khan or any upcoming war with the Federation. It was more of a personal drama.

STiD, on the other hand, is very much about war and terrorism and conspiracies--and not at all about Kirk confronting his own past.
"Teaming up with me for bridge after dinner?"
"Maybe."
"What is it?"
"Every time I have dealings with Starfleet, I get nervous. We are dealing with something...that...could be perverted into a dreadful weapon."
Like Khan himself, another creation of our genius that out-paced morality, genesis is the perfect weapon in this movie. The next movie highlights the theme even more by getting the Klingons involved.

It doesn't matter if it's cast-iron weapons or drones, scientific discoveries become used for military purposes.
No, sorry.

The drone strike plot in STID is specifically allegorical to the present day real world, in the context of the War on Terror. The STID torpedoes were intended to target a single man in something analogous to a surgical strike. Kirk's comments about how Harrison deserved a trial comprised a direct commentary, specifically on today's world.

On the other hand, the Genesis torpedo was much more analogous to indiscriminate apocalyptic weapons of mass destruction, laced with Biblical overtones of both Revelations and Genesis, as all but explicitly voiced by McCoy prior to Khan's attack. In no way is TWOK's Genesis torpedo allegorical of the War on Terror.

If this is the standard for one thing ripping off another, you may as well scream "Plagiarism!" every time the ship fires photon torpedoes.
Khan is used to create a weapon. That is a little different, but he still has his revenge and then steals said weapon to continue his mission. Khan, in II, is going to get revenge and then do the exact same thing with Genesis.

I'm not saying that there isn't any departure, that it isn't a imaginative re-make, but a re-make it remains. It remains a piece of music that is given a different tone, but uses the same arrangement and lyrics. The message of the story is about Kirk and Spock's relationship. The details of what gets them there, is not all that important to this debate.

I say again: Kirk believes that the rules do not apply to him. Spock is all about "the needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few" and he follows the rules. Because they contrast each other does not mean that the movie with Khan in it has to deal with death. Both Kirk and Spock face death in II, III, and STID. Their reactions are predictable. Did you think, for an instant, that Kirk would leave Spock to die? Did you care that Kirk had a reason for it? That the makers of the film have stated that they wanted to make Spock experience the type of friendship Kirk feels for Spock.

They didn't focus on making Kirk and Spock's relationship different than it is in the Original Series MOVIES, when they have been around each other for 20 years. They shoe-horned their relationship in 6 months because fans expect them to be friends. This is my same complaint with the UPN series of Star Trek: They stopped taking risks in storytelling.

So an example from Batman: Alfred was a doting buffoon in the original movies, a pun machine. In Nolan's version, he has a conflict with Bruce about becoming Batman and disobeying the rules to get done what he needs to do to save lives. They bond because Bruce had Alfred growing up, not his father and mother. There's a reason for the relationship. When Alfred says goodbye to Bruce, it stunned me because I watched the other 2 films. There's a genuine bond there, and looking through Alfred's eyes, before he said a word, I sobbed when he was standing over Bruce's grave in the Dark Knight Rises. It genuinely touched me that Alfred felt like a failure.

I rolled my eyes when Kirk died. The "nods," not saying anything about the relationship that was not established in II and III, made me feel like I had wasted my time. I knew an augment was going to save Kirk before he took his last breath.
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Old December 6 2013, 01:42 AM   #763
Greg Cox
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
Mister Cox ... I disagree with you completely on the DS9 thing! Completely disagree with you. However, I did purchase one of your Khan books, where you go into detail over Khan's life on Ceti Alpha V. We will see how it holds up to the 2takesfrakes White Glove Test, as I peruse this yarn of yours ... spun for our entertainment ...
Thanks! Hope you like the book. I'm particularly proud of that one.
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Old December 6 2013, 01:44 AM   #764
2takesfrakes
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

... You go, boy!
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Old December 6 2013, 03:57 AM   #765
Greg Cox
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Okay, here's what I would consider a NuTrek retread of WoK. Young Captain Kirk and the crew of Enterprise are assigned to assist a brilliant young scientist, Dr. Carol Marcus, on her top-secret Genesis Project. Sparks flare between Kirk and Carol, but then the crew stumbles onto the hibernating form of a mysterious superman named Khan, who uses his mind-warping Ceti eels to steal the Genesis Device in order to launch a genocidal attack on Earth. Bonus points if you can work in Capt. Terrell and the U.S.S. Reliant.

Nothing about Klingons, Section 31, or a top-secret Federation warship.

Now that would be a retread/remake/rehash/whatever.

Reinventing Khan for a new story about terrorism and espionage in the 23rd century? Not so much . . . .
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