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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old December 5 2013, 03:23 PM   #121
AgentDreidel
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

^I've said it before, I'll say it again, I'll say it until the day I die: OWNERSHIP OF THE PLANET IS NEVER DEBATED IN THE MOVIE. Even Picard never claims the Baku own the planet. However it got that way, the movie is built on the premise that it's a Federation world.
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Old December 5 2013, 03:46 PM   #122
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

We know from The Augment trilogy that the Briar Patch belonged to the Klingons two hundred years prior so they may have had a claim on it long before that.
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Old December 5 2013, 03:58 PM   #123
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
starburst wrote: View Post
I wonder how many of the Starfleet personnel observing knew what was going on? The Holoship was a Starfleet ship so some of them must have known what was going to happen even if Data didnt.
Well according to the script for the film I found online it sounded like only Dougherty knew what they were actually doing, which pretty much adds to how shady this thing looks.
Sorry I've asked this before but if Dougherty was doing something dodgy why would he get Data involved. Why not just call Picard and Riker in as well ? Why did he need Data there? Why not just have a bunch of flunkies?
Data being there makes as much sense as Troi or Crusher or Worf IMO?
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Old December 5 2013, 04:40 PM   #124
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

BillJ wrote: View Post
We know from The Augment trilogy that the Briar Patch belonged to the Klingons two hundred years prior so they may have had a claim on it long before that.
Actually from the Augment trilogy it sounds like the Klingons either had only recently moved in to the area (which was a century after the Ba'ku moved to the planet) or were just not interested in it (The Briar Patch is a crappy piece of real-estate) as it was said that they hadn't mapped the region at that point.

Elf Spock wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
starburst wrote: View Post
I wonder how many of the Starfleet personnel observing knew what was going on? The Holoship was a Starfleet ship so some of them must have known what was going to happen even if Data didnt.
Well according to the script for the film I found online it sounded like only Dougherty knew what they were actually doing, which pretty much adds to how shady this thing looks.
Sorry I've asked this before but if Dougherty was doing something dodgy why would he get Data involved.
Considering Data didn't know what was going on and was shot to keep it secret and if Picard had had to kill him Dougherty probably wouldn't have come forward with what was going on at all thats not exactly a good argument to make for this being on the up and up

Especially since at the time it looked like they were just doing another one of their covert observations of a pre-warp planet.
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Old December 5 2013, 04:52 PM   #125
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

This is a lot more in-depth discussion than this film deserves.
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Old December 5 2013, 05:46 PM   #126
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
This is a lot more in-depth discussion than this film deserves.
You're absolutely right.
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Old December 5 2013, 05:51 PM   #127
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
We know from The Augment trilogy that the Briar Patch belonged to the Klingons two hundred years prior so they may have had a claim on it long before that.
Actually from the Augment trilogy it sounds like the Klingons either had only recently moved in to the area (which was a century after the Ba'ku moved to the planet) or were just not interested in it (The Briar Patch is a crappy piece of real-estate) as it was said that they hadn't mapped the region at that point.

Elf Spock wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post


Well according to the script for the film I found online it sounded like only Dougherty knew what they were actually doing, which pretty much adds to how shady this thing looks.
Sorry I've asked this before but if Dougherty was doing something dodgy why would he get Data involved.
Considering Data didn't know what was going on and was shot to keep it secret and if Picard had had to kill him Dougherty probably wouldn't have come forward with what was going on at all thats not exactly a good argument to make for this being on the up and up

Especially since at the time it looked like they were just doing another one of their covert observations of a pre-warp planet.
Q1. Why Data of all the thousands of officers in Starfleet especially when he is assigned to a ship?

Q2. If they thought the Baku were primitives (and it should be obvious in 5 minutes listening to their conversations that they were not) then what were the Federation planning to do? Surely the PD says to leave them alone and not move them from the planet. Even in Kirk's day no natives were forcibly moved from their planet even if they were sitting atop a great pile of dilithium crystals.

Q3. Did Dougherty or one of is flunkies shoot Data to keep it quiet?
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Old December 5 2013, 05:58 PM   #128
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Q2: It's (supposed to be) obvious that (at least according to some) the Federation is in the middle of the worst war in its history, and consequently (depending on how you look at it) is willing to make some moral compromises that it wouldn't make at other times.

I'd note for those who take issue with the Son'a taking slaves that the Klingons have done far worse and yet the Federation allied itself with them.
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Old December 5 2013, 06:19 PM   #129
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
AgentDreidel wrote: View Post
^Almost every argument used to defend the Baku is speculation, especially the reapeated claims that they "own" the planet. The movie makes NO SUCH CLAIM.
Considering you haven't provided any evidence that someone else owned the planet and gave it to the federation (and no the whole well somebody must have is crap pulled out of an ass until you have proof) then unless the federation colonized it (which they didn't) or the Ba'ku join the federation (which they didn't) the federation doesn't own the planet.

Also I find it funny that the Ba'ku are being held to a standard the federation never had to before when they set up colonies.

starburst wrote: View Post
I wonder how many of the Starfleet personnel observing knew what was going on? The Holoship was a Starfleet ship so some of them must have known what was going to happen even if Data didnt.
Well according to the script for the film I found online it sounded like only Dougherty knew what they were actually doing, which pretty much adds to how shady this thing looks.
The holoship could be a bit of standard long-term observation kit. You've got the duck blinded, and then holoship for sims or other research.
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Old December 5 2013, 07:31 PM   #130
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Considering you haven't provided any evidence that someone else owned the planet and gave it to the federation ...
Why would someone have to give it to the Federation? It not like the people living in that single valley ever claimed it.

So here's this unclaimed planet, in this unclaimed area of space (after the Klingon stepped away), and the federation incorperated the entire area into their space.

Picard: "A planet in federation space."


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Old December 5 2013, 10:37 PM   #131
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

A couple of things.

First, I enjoy the movie the way I enjoy STV. Yes it's a bad movie, but I turn off my critical thinking and just enjoy what I can.

Second, if we are going to critical think, is it not possible for a planet to be in Federation Space, but still not be a Federation planet? I want to say that has come up before in TOS or TNG, heck maybe even DS9, I can't remember.
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Old December 5 2013, 10:49 PM   #132
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

^It's possible, but it's never brought up in the film, even by the Baku or Picard. If the planet wasn't a Federation planet, it seems ridiculous that Picard never points this out.

Then again, it also seems ridiculous that nobody would ask the Baku if they were willing to leave the planet.

It's hard to discuss the film in a qualified manner when even such obvious points as these are never raised in the film itself.
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Old December 5 2013, 11:13 PM   #133
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

DonIago wrote: View Post

It's hard to discuss the film in a qualified manner when even such obvious points as these are never raised in the film itself.
Too many cooks in the kitchen syndrome.
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Old December 6 2013, 04:46 AM   #134
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

TheMurph wrote: View Post
is it not possible for a planet to be in Federation Space, but still not be a Federation planet?
Yes, it's possible.
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Old December 6 2013, 05:34 AM   #135
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Lance wrote: View Post
The fact that the Son'a are such open-and-shut baddies from the very first time we see them.

You know, good movie villains trade on ambiguity.
Yes. Some (most?) of the Son'a turned nice at the end. The ambiguity might helped that feel less sudden.
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