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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old December 4 2013, 08:16 PM   #76
DonIago
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Actually? Mandatory organ donation doesn't seem like the worst idea ever, if we're talking post-death at least. I mean really, you're not getting any use out of them anymore...

It's my understanding that when the Baku found the planet it was already claimed by an interstellar power that later ceded the area to the Federation. In short, at best the Baku were ignorant of the existing claim; at worst they deliberately flaunted said claim.
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Old December 4 2013, 08:18 PM   #77
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

DonIago wrote: View Post
Actually? Mandatory organ donation doesn't seem like the worst idea ever, if we're talking post-death at least.
Perhaps not, but that's a slippery slope if there ever was one. Any society that requires organ donation *after* death is just one step away from requiring it before. I mean, you only need one kidney, right?
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Old December 4 2013, 08:22 PM   #78
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Rķu rķu, chķu wrote: View Post
^ Agreed on that last bit. So let's run with that: If Dougherty's plan never existed, and the Son'a were the only ones trying to exploit the Ba'ku, the Federation couldn't do anything about it. But that's not what happened, is it?
It seems the S'ona recognize that the planet belongs to the Federation or else they would have fried the Ba'ku and collected the particles. It seems like everyone in the movie acknowledges the planet belongs to the Federation, even Picard doesn't argue about ownership.

As far as Section 31 goes: why would the Federation not order everyone out of the area and allow the Ba'ku to be alone instead of saying the removal was "under review"? Why would Dougherty take an unknown element in Data into such a secret mission? Why would Section 31 even care about wasting time recreating the Ba'ku village when it could have simply scooped them up and dumped them someplace remote where no one would ever find them (or just outright kill them)? It makes no sense as a Section 31 mission.
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Old December 4 2013, 08:24 PM   #79
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

^ Maybe they thought that doing those things would attract too much attention and/or be too risky. I'm sure Dougherty was given some degree of leeway as to how he carried out his orders, after all. He could have simply been cautious.
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Old December 4 2013, 08:27 PM   #80
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Rķu rķu, chķu wrote: View Post
^ Maybe they thought that doing those things would attract too much attention and/or be too risky. I'm sure Dougherty was given some degree of leeway as to how he carried out his orders, after all. He could have simply been cautious.
You mean attract more attention than taking the second officer from the flagship of the Federation along? Section 31 has never seemed like the type of group to allow leeway.

You're really reaching to try and pin this on someone other than the Federation Council and Starfleet.
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Old December 4 2013, 08:36 PM   #81
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

^ Perhaps. But I'm not the first.

(In the novels, IIRC, Dougherty actually was S31)
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Old December 4 2013, 09:14 PM   #82
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Rķu rķu, chķu wrote: View Post
The planet is not Federation property. It may be in Federation SPACE, but that doesn't mean anything.
Except, the planet isn't surround by the Federation but separate from it, according to Picard the planet is IN FEDERATION SPACE.

That planet only becomes part of the Federation if it asks to join and is granted. If it doesn't do so, then the Federation can't do jackshit about it.
During these threads I like to bring up New Orleans, since it's founding as a small port and trading post the nation it belonged to changed a number of times, the people who lived in the city had no say in these exchanges.

New York used to be New Amsterdam, it's belonged to three countries. Apparently the people living there didn't mind moving from the Dutch to the British, or later to America.

But they never were ASKED.

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Old December 4 2013, 09:52 PM   #83
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Elf Spock wrote: View Post
Look I don't 'hate' NEM. It still a Star Trek movie. However I am a Star Trek fan and as such a cliche its my right and duty to nitpick the hell out of all the movies and series. I thought this movie would be an OK 2-parter in TNG. Not the worst and not the best of TNG.
I disagree. The movie, if you follow Star Trek, has high stakes. The graphics are light years ahead of anything in the series, including BOBW. If feels like a movie to me.

The best Trek poses a moral question. Are we still the people that annex land for the sake of the community? According to what I see on this site, even after the eminent domain controversy, we are. Star Trek's morality is, at its best, foresees the future. That's why DS9 is so poignant now in the wake of 9/11.

Elf Spock wrote: View Post
You can like the movie but is it really poignant?
Yes. As a man who has a chronic medical condition, seeing Geordi with his eyesight was emotional, impactful. Thinking about the uses of technology, and this movie helped to further that thought in my mind, and how it has put people out of a job, that was a powerful thought. Hearing Data describe his longing for understanding what it is like to be a child, watching Data act in the best interest of Starfleet, hearing Picard's voice when he talked about ending Data, all of those things stirred my emotions.

Have you ever watched a Dramedy? I feel this movie is one. While we see Picard dance the mambo, we also see his rather serious question moments later (his mind has been working as the scientist he is!) "How old are you?" You can appreciate the mixing of the two genres and too many people are looking for pure darkness and thinking that makes a better movie.

This movie is subtle. It speaks in whispers. The only person who doesn't, is F. Murray Abraham.

Elf Spock wrote: View Post
Do you really like wacky Data? I just thought Data is embarressing here and in GEN. It reduces his dignity as a character to act as a 'portable floatation' device IMO. Or perhaps I have no sense of humor.
I don't see him as wacky. The first episode Data stands in the middle of the bridge and recites the definition of "snoop." If you don't like that, you don't understand Data. Data isn't "wacky," he's not human. He still doesn't, with his emotions, know the subtle workings of human behavior.

Elf Spock wrote: View Post
On initial viewing I didn't consider the moral implications of the Baku vs Sona and Federation rights. I just took the movie at face value - that Picard was right everyone else was wrong but wondered why Picard would risk everything for the smug Baku. They just really irritated me. I refuse to believe its because he has the hots for Anji. But thats what it seemed at the time.

Also I agree the Baku have every right to keep the radiation rings whatever to themselves. You know as every millionaire has the right to keep their money and not donate it all to charity. That doesn't make them 'noble' though. That doesn't make them worthy of giving up your career for in case they give you a few titbits of immortality when you come to visit.
This isn't about the Ba'ku, this is about the Federation. From Picard's perspective, they are betraying everything that the Federation stands for. That is why he gives up the uniform. At face value, this movie will not knock your socks off. Think about it, watch it again, and the subtleties come alive.

Elf Spock wrote: View Post
I wished the film made me like the Baku. Then at least I would have wanted Picard to be on their side. Now I just think of them as the guys who banished their own children to die because they disobeyed them.
There was no other option. They tried to end the way the Ba'ku were living. They feel as disgusted by technological advancements as you or I feel about rape. The Son'a tried to end the Ba'ku before they were banished from the planet. Hate them all you want, don't like the movie, but I think they are more sympathetic than you realize. They have built a culture and they have to defend it. It wasn't about immortality, it's that their "young people" were trying to make the same mistakes they wish to avoid. They are not us. They look like us, but they are from another culture. We have to respect that.

Elf Spock wrote: View Post
And I understand that in Star Trek before Picard had no hesitation in moving the American Indians from their spiritual home on orders from the Admiralty. And this was their spiritual home not just any ordinary planet to them. Picard was prepared to move the Indians on just as they had been displaced in America centuries before. In the Baku case these were white settlers with a good looking leader. So is that the difference ? Or was it the prospect of immmortality? How did Picard change so much between the series and the movies when even more was at stake?
First, they are fit because of the rings. You are expecting immortal people to be fat and bald?

Go re-watch the episode (Journey's End, 7th season). He lobbies Nacheyev, pointing out that her orders violate his morality. He tries to get them to leave their land, he tries to stop the Cardassians from coming on the planet. Besides, if that were true, someone has to act exactly the same in similar situations? Maybe he learned from that mistake, views it as a mistake. When I was 16, I was a conservative. By the age of 23, I was a liberal. Would you say my character is "inconsistent," accusing me of being a racist as the reason for the transformation?
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Old December 4 2013, 09:59 PM   #84
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

DonIago wrote: View Post
Actually? Mandatory organ donation doesn't seem like the worst idea ever, if we're talking post-death at least. I mean really, you're not getting any use out of them anymore...

It's my understanding that when the Baku found the planet it was already claimed by an interstellar power that later ceded the area to the Federation. In short, at best the Baku were ignorant of the existing claim; at worst they deliberately flaunted said claim.
And what happens when a doctor lets a man die because he knows someone needs a heart in the hospital? What happens when someone feels that their culture is violated by cutting into the dead body and removing anything?
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Old December 4 2013, 10:11 PM   #85
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
The best Trek poses a moral question.
If that's what "Insurrection" was supposed to do, it failed miserably. It didn't pose a moral question, it gave you the answer: it said, "We're the good guys, those ugly ones are the bad guys, now don't ask any questions."

Hearing Data describe his longing for understanding what it is like to be a child, watching Data act in the best interest of Starfleet, hearing Picard's voice when he talked about ending Data, all of those things stirred my emotions.
It's always interesting to me to compare and contrast audience reactions. I remember sitting in the movie being out of popcorn about two thirds of the way through the film wondering, "When am I actually supposed to care about anything that's happening?"

The thing is I really wanted to like "Insurrection." I was sick to death of time travel and definitely didn't want another bang-bang shoot-em-up. I had high hopes Piller would write a great feature-length character story the way he did for DS9's "Emissary." After seeing "Insurrection," I could't believe the same writer penned both stories.

Have you ever watched a Dramedy? I feel this movie is one. While we see Picard dance the mambo, we also see his rather serious question moments later (his mind has been working as the scientist he is!) "How old are you?" You can appreciate the mixing of the two genres and too many people are looking for pure darkness and thinking that makes a better movie.
It didn't need to be darker. It just needed to be a better movie.

This movie is subtle. It speaks in whispers. The only person who doesn't, is F. Murray Abraham.
There's nothing subtle about it. The good guys are beautiful, the bad guys are fugly, and our heroes are always right even when they're wrong.
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Old December 4 2013, 10:12 PM   #86
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Rķu rķu, chķu wrote: View Post

"Sonic diarrhea"?
From the Futurama episode, "The Series Has Landed".

The Series Has Landed wrote:
Hermes Conrad: Okay, captain, this is just a standard legal release, protecting Planet Express from lawsuits in the event of the unforeseen.

Leela: [reading] "Death by airlock failure... "

Hermes Conrad: Mm-hm.

Leela: "... death by brain parasite... "

Hermes Conrad: Yah.

Leela: "... death by sonic diarrhea... "

Hermes Conrad: Oho, you don't want that.


Leela: Look, I don't know about your previous captains, but I intend to do as little dying as possible.

Hermes Conrad: Ohohohohohohoho... Sign the paper.
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Old December 4 2013, 10:17 PM   #87
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

The Baku are as disgusted by technology as we are by rape? They seemed pretty okay with it when Picard and co. were using their evil technology to defend them.
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Old December 4 2013, 10:20 PM   #88
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

AgentDreidel wrote: View Post
The Baku are as disgusted by technology as we are by rape? They seemed pretty okay with it when Picard and co. were using their evil technology to defend them.
"The moment we pick up a weapon, we become one of them. We lose everything we are."
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Old December 4 2013, 10:20 PM   #89
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

AgentDreidel wrote: View Post
The Baku are as disgusted by technology as we are by rape? They seemed pretty okay with it when Picard and co. were using their evil technology to defend them.
They had to have used technology to force and keep the S'ona off-world. There also would've had to be a spaceship available for the S'ona to use to leave.

Little about the Ba'ku makes sense.
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Old December 4 2013, 10:27 PM   #90
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
AgentDreidel wrote: View Post
The Baku are as disgusted by technology as we are by rape? They seemed pretty okay with it when Picard and co. were using their evil technology to defend them.
"The moment we pick up a weapon, we become one of them. We lose everything we are."
Ah, yes. Very high-minded words. All it actually means, though is that the Baku want to sit on their hands while Picard and his crew risk their lives to defend the all-important Baku way of life. I'm seeing a theme with these people. Everyone else in the universe is disposable fodder in the service of Baku moral superiority.
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