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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old November 25 2013, 11:46 PM   #136
Saito S
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

Re: Cumberbatch vs Montalban. I think we're at loggerheads, honestly. I actually agree about "My name is Khan" in STID; I'd forgotten about that, but it was a bit much. And really, while I liked STID overall and enjoyed it more than TWOK, I still think that making Cumberbatch's character someone else (maybe a follower of Khan instead?) would really have been better and more interesting overall. Buuuut, that's not how they wanted it to go.

And while we're on the subject of admitted flaws in STID: the first look at Khan, with the camera hiding him until the end of the conversation and then showing him with this serious look on his face and playing this REALLY dramatic, "oh look! LE VILLAIN!" music... that was just silly. Probably the most poorly executed scene in the whole damn film for my money. It was so completely over the top and unnecessary.

As for the torpedo thing: I dunno, I didn't have a problem with either the idea of trying to smuggle his people on them in the first place (vs Marcus having complete control over their fate, which was Khan's only alternative from what I recall; this was literally the only way he could find to get them away from Marcus), nor having Spock beam them aboard. He had no reason to think that they had evacuated all of his people from them and rearmed the warheads. Spock outmaneuvered him there.

Re: the shields - UFO pretty much says most of what I would have said to follow up on that. Raising the shields is as close as one can possibly get to a risk and consequence-free combat preparedness maneuver (and doesn't really have a direct equivalent in real-life military tactics and tech). And even if one buys Kirk knocking down Saavik when she tries to quote the reg, and Spock siding with Kirk instead of her on that, and even if we buy Kirk saying the situation is "damn peculiar" but still not raising shields - I think all of that is on shaky ground at best, but buying it for the sake of argument - going to yellow alert (which - according to the dialog and visuals immediately following Kirk giving the yellow alert order - apparently includes "energizing defense fields" and charging phasers!) but not raising shields, seeing the Reliant raise HERS but still not raising the shields... sorry, but I really can't get past that. It was as distracting a flub as just about any I've seen in any Trek ep or movie.

Last thing I'll say on this point, since it's something that's been brought up a few times and I'd like to clarify it. I have no problem whatsoever with the idea of Kirk making a mistake, even a serious one, or with the idea of him being "old and rusty", which of course is a major theme of the film as has been pointed out as well. It's the execution of the Reliant approach scene/shield thing itself that bothers me. I suppose that it's really a microcosm of TWOK as a whole for me: I see what they were going for, and have no problem with what they were going for, the execution just didn't work.

All of that said, as I mentioned at the top, I think we've reached the point where we are smashing opinions against one another regarding most of the above, and we're just going to go in circles if we keep discussing it. I'll shake hands and agree to disagree if you will.
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Old November 26 2013, 12:12 AM   #137
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

BillJ wrote: View Post
Emotionally, I think it is a good scene. But it really doesn't make any sense. Why would Khan have to come down to Regula to kill them? Why couldn't he beam the survivors up just like he beamed up the Genesis Device?
I think because sensors can't see that far down into the rock. That's why on Regula I they couldn't see where they had beamed down. They needed coordinates. Khan couldn't just fire away the transporters, hoping to pick someone up.

I also think Kirk's scream is genuine. He has a plan, but he's still pissed at Khan.
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Old November 26 2013, 12:41 AM   #138
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

UFO wrote: View Post
Sorry, but your counter example above is what is known as a straw man. As pointed out, general order 12 does not require Kirk to blow anyone out of space.
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about taking the steps to prepare for active combat with one of your own ships. I'm really not trying to strawman anything; the above steps I describe are the real-world counterparts of things like "raising shields" or "red alert." What do you think it would take to get one American submarine to take those steps against another, no matter how peculiar the situation? Can you see why that would be a complicated decision? Even just psychologically?

Mainly I would expect Kirk to have been thinking that whatever the peculiarity of the situation, the possibility of another Starfleet ship firing on him was so remote as to be absurd. Which is in fact what I would expect the commander of a warship approaching a fellow warship to think, in most remotely psychologically realistic settings. So I suppose that explanation just seems like the most natural fit to me. I suppose we could count seconds from this or that indications that something is wrong and award Kirk a coresponding number of Alzheimer's Medals if you're really determined to, but I can't say I'm buying it.

Saito S wrote:
going to yellow alert (which - according to the dialog and visuals immediately following Kirk giving the yellow alert order - apparently includes "energizing defense fields" and charging phasers!) but not raising shields, seeing the Reliant raise HERS but still not raising the shields... sorry, but I really can't get past that.
That's your prerogative. Procedurally I kinda sort of see where you're coming from, it's just that the plot point is about psychology and that's where we seem to differ. (I have always admittedly found the "defense fields" thing a bit confusing -- shouldn't yellow alert automatically raise the shields? What's the difference between shields and "defense fields"?) On timing, the immediate preamble to Khan's attack is basically supposed to be extremely rapid, so I've really never found myself stopwatching Kirk's response time to the Reliant's actions once that begins.
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Old November 26 2013, 01:29 AM   #139
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

BigJake wrote: View Post
UFO wrote: View Post
Sorry, but your counter example above is what is known as a straw man. As pointed out, general order 12 does not require Kirk to blow anyone out of space.
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about taking the steps to prepare for active combat with one of your own ships. I'm really not trying to strawman anything; the above steps I describe are the real-world counterparts of things like "raising shields" or "red alert." What do you think it would take to get one American submarine to take those steps against another, no matter how peculiar the situation? Can you see why that would be a complicated decision? Even just psychologically?

Mainly I would expect Kirk to have been thinking that whatever the peculiarity of the situation, the possibility of another Starfleet ship firing on him was so remote as to be absurd. Which is in fact what I would expect the commander of a warship approaching a fellow warship to think, in most remotely psychologically realistic settings. So I suppose that explanation just seems like the most natural fit to me. ... .
As Saito S pointed out there is no analogue to raising shieds in present warships (I thought about mentioning that, but was just too damned lazy! ), so your example breaks down at that point. To make that clearer: What commander would fail to termporility double their ship's armour in a suspicious situation if they could do so at the flick of a switch? None I'm guessing. There is no Rubicon being crossed as there would be with preparing for offensive action in current day terms. So I can't see the problem. But even it there is any residual psychological resistance, that presumably is precisely why GO 12 exists.

To be fair I can't remember if that scene stood out like finding Spock on the ice planet in ST09, or not. Certainly not as badly I'm guessing, but I still think it is the worst such moment in TWOK, and I tend to over look a lot of that stuff unless someone draws my attention to it.
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Old November 26 2013, 01:46 AM   #140
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

UFO wrote: View Post
As Saito S pointed out there is no analogue to raising shieds in present warships (I thought about mentioning that, but was just too damned lazy! ), so your example breaks down at that point.
It really doesn't. Flooding the tubes of a ship preparatory for launch is basically a detectible defensive measure that the other sub can hear. You actually don't have to plot a firing solution or have any intent to fire, it can quite easily be just a readiness measure... Not unlike "shields" in the ST universe*. There are no perfect analogies obviously, but the analogy needn't be exact for the psychological point to come across.

And I take it it's coming across, yes? It would in fact be really spectacularly unlikely for an American sub commander to assume even in a peculiar situation that one of his own ships is the enemy and to prepare accordingly, right?

(* If real-world sub commanders could double their armor at the push of a button, you can bet that with that more perfect parallel, that too would be read by other ships as an indicator of intention to do battle. The thing about defensive measures is that they're also potentially offensive measures.)

But even it there is any residual psychological resistance, that presumably is precisely why GO 12 exists.
I'm not talking about "residual psychological resistance." I'm talking about its being a basic pyschological component of your average navy -- and Starfleet is essentially a Space Navy -- to have an extremely strong inhibition against firing on your own ships or assuming they will fire on you.
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Old November 26 2013, 07:25 AM   #141
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

BigJake wrote: View Post
UFO wrote: View Post
As Saito S pointed out there is no analogue to raising shieds in present warships (I thought about mentioning that, but was just too damned lazy! ), so your example breaks down at that point.
It really doesn't. Flooding the tubes of a ship preparatory for launch is basically a detectible defensive measure that the other sub can hear. You actually don't have to plot a firing solution or have any intent to fire, it can quite easily be just a readiness measure... Not unlike "shields" in the ST universe*. There are no perfect analogies obviously, but the analogy needn't be exact for the psychological point to come across.
Except raising shields isn't an offensive measure, which is too much to dismiss as close enough. I will grant you I wouldn't want to go into battle with out them, but there are separate detectable actions for readying offensive measures in ST. So there is no reason for the other skipper to get too perturbed, especially when he knows regulations exist that cover what the first ship is doing in response to the situation he is creating.

And I take it it's coming across, yes? It would in fact be really spectacularly unlikely for an American sub commander to assume even in a peculiar situation that one of his own ships is the enemy and to prepare accordingly, right?
In real life, maybe. I would hope (s)he might keep the possibility in mind especially if it had no downside. In Starfleet, where commandeering its ships seems a lot more common, not so much. But seriously (although the above is a fair point I believe), the evidence is stacking up against the Reliant. In addition to what’s been mentioned, it intercepts the Enterprise en route to Regula I, which looks like something bad has happened to it, with no other ships around. Worse, it keeps coming, albeit more slowly when its commander should know that's a bad move given GO 12. My bet is GO 12 also specifies keeping a distance (especially when you risk exposing your vital areas at point blank range) as well as raising shields. I don't buy that yellow alert rubbish. That seems like rolling over and asking to have your tummy rubbed. If its important to be cautious of ships like the Reliant, then when they try to close, you should be required to put a shot across their bow!

I mean, it's not just that the Reliant isn't communicating, which by itself is apparent cause for significant caution, you have to take all the evidence at Kirk's disposal into account. How often do such situations happen in real navies? Probably not often. And in Star Trek we can't assume what you are look at is not an illusion of some sort, which is less likely today.

But even it there is any residual psychological resistance, that presumably is precisely why GO 12 exists.
I'm not talking about "residual psychological resistance." I'm talking about its being a basic pyschological component of your average navy -- and Starfleet is essentially a Space Navy -- to have an extremely strong inhibition against firing on your own ships or assuming they will fire on you.
You're certainly making the case for the importance of sticking rigidly to GO 12 (whatever it is), And here you were suggesting it wasn't really for Starfleet ships. But if it was so unthinkable, why did Saavik even bring up the regulation? Was she naive or paranoid? Clearly GO 12 exists not for the obvious potential threats so much as to ensure the unlikely ones are handled properly. As mentioned above, everyone should know the score so there would be no "offence" or misunderstanding.
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Old November 27 2013, 05:18 AM   #142
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

Belz... wrote: View Post

I also think Kirk's scream is genuine. He has a plan, but he's still pissed at Khan.
I tend to agree with you. The Enterprise is out there - severely damaged, people have been killed, Kirk's away from the Command seat (and don't lets kid ourselves that Kirk's not in charge of the Enterprise). And for all Kirk knows Khan may look for and find the Enterprise if he acts too condident.

I'm thinking that the unbelievable aspect of Kirk's not raising shields might be because non-one can believe such as awesome Captain as Kirk could make such a mistake.
I think the 'perfect' people/Captain era started in Berman Trek so it doesn't apply here.

Last edited by M'Sharak; November 27 2013 at 06:19 AM. Reason: quote attribution corrected
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Old November 27 2013, 05:43 AM   #143
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

It is too cute/contrived. When I watched it the one time, at the Kirk-death scene I was not into the movie, but observing it for similarities/differences with TWOK. So the whole same-but-different thing took me out of the story. Which wasn't that riveting, granted. But still. The whole turnabout death scene part of the script seems . . . puerile? Juvenile? Don't know quite the word. I think "cute" was what I meant, there at the beginning. Not looking for arguments, just answering the OP.
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Old November 27 2013, 11:55 AM   #144
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
Personally, I never thought Khan had it in him to get both Kirk AND Spock to scream his name! That ... that's something ... I'd call that very "slashy."

Oh my, I just got that.

You've tainted this thread for me if not all of Star Trek.

Kkkkkkkkkkkkhhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnn nn!
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Old November 28 2013, 11:34 AM   #145
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

This made me a bit emotional.. I love vids that combine TOS scenes and NuTrek.

And yes it's all about that moment.

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Old November 28 2013, 12:04 PM   #146
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

So I've just watched that vid 10 times in a row and it makes me think.. God I love Star Trek.
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Old November 28 2013, 08:36 PM   #147
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

Wow.
teacake wrote: View Post
God I love Star Trek.
Sounds about right.
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Old December 4 2013, 08:24 PM   #148
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

when I first saw the ending of STID I couldn't stop having images of Wrath of Khan in my mind, and finding the new movie inferior. As BIG as that reactor room was in the new movie, I find that little room where Spock was in was soooo much more interesting and engaging. Like Red Letter Media commented does it have to be bigger to be greater? And the whole role reversal is clever but I think mostly non trek fans though it was fun... 'cause you know... it was like... opposite... how clever!

My biggest gripe was the fact a Vulcan was called to a very emotional moment... when they don't portray emotions, then he goes on a total rage.

What was great with the classic Trek Films was Leonard Nimoy's ability to convey emotion as being emotionless. It's more what he said, then the screaming and raging.
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