RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,123
Posts: 5,433,318
Members: 24,933
Currently online: 645
Newest member: karanfree

TrekToday headlines

Pine In New Skit
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

Stewart In Holiday Film
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

The Red Shirt Diaries #8
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

IDW Publishing January Comics
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

Retro Review: Chrysalis
By: Michelle on Oct 18

The Next Generation Season Seven Blu-ray Details
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

CBS Launches Streaming Service
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

Yelchin In New Indie Thriller
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

Saldana In The Book of Life
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

Cracked’s New Sci-Fi Satire
By: T'Bonz on Oct 16


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 1 2013, 08:47 PM   #706
BigSnake
Rear Admiral
 
BigSnake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Khan cannot have been a Sikh in "Space Seed" because he violated two of the most basic tennants of Sikhism.
Like I said, this is a distraction -- although it's worth pointing out that people who don't believe there are ethnic, non-practising Sikhs who don't wear turbans are 100% wrong and what this tells me is that they don't know any real-life Sikhs. It really doesn't matter one single whit if his costume was not technically accurately Sikh, nor whether the actor was white or not, none of that is the point. The point is that the character was sold, and played, as not only a genetic superhuman but as an exotic prince out of his time. That was the core of the original character's charisma and distinctiveness.
__________________
Weasels rip BigJake's flesh!
"I wanna read more" - Dennis "I . . . agree with everything you said" - SPCTRE "I blame Cracked" - J. Allen "Take me off" - The Stig
BigSnake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 1 2013, 08:53 PM   #707
Pasi Nurminen
Lieutenant Commander
 
Location: New Westminster, BC
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigJake wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Khan cannot have been a Sikh in "Space Seed" because he violated two of the most basic tennants of Sikhism.
although it's worth pointing out that people who don't believe there are ethnic, non-practising Sikhs who don't wear turbans are 100% wrong and what this tells me is that they don't know any real-life Sikhs.
I'm sure my co-worker who sits across a conveyer belt five feet away from me every day would be surprised to learn that he is not a "real-life Sikh."

You're right that there are non-practicing Sikhs (in much the same way that I possess Christian beliefs but haven't been to church in years), but there are no such thing as "ethnic" Sikhs. The ethnic identity tied to the Sikh religion would be Punjabi; there is no Sikh ethnicity. Though, as I've said, not all Punjabi persons are Sikh, and there are non-Punjabi Sikhs as well since the religion does accept converts even from non-Punjabi persons.

Last edited by Pasi Nurminen; December 1 2013 at 09:04 PM.
Pasi Nurminen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 1 2013, 09:40 PM   #708
BigSnake
Rear Admiral
 
BigSnake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Pasi Nurminen wrote: View Post
The ethnic identity tied to the Sikh religion would be Punjabi; there is no Sikh ethnicity.
AFAIK the phrase "ethnic Sikh" would mean someone who was born into a Sikh family but not necessarily practising themselves. It is in fact a common term not unlike "ethnic Jew." (There are to be sure practising members of both religions and more besides who would tell you "there's no such thing as an ethnic [Jew or Sikh or what have you].")
__________________
Weasels rip BigJake's flesh!
"I wanna read more" - Dennis "I . . . agree with everything you said" - SPCTRE "I blame Cracked" - J. Allen "Take me off" - The Stig
BigSnake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 1 2013, 09:48 PM   #709
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigJake wrote: View Post

Like I said, this is a distraction -- although it's worth pointing out that people who don't believe there are ethnic, non-practising Sikhs who don't wear turbans are 100% wrong and what this tells me is that they don't know any real-life Sikhs.
It still doesn't explain how McGivers recognizes him on sight as an ethnic Sikh.


It really doesn't matter one single whit if his costume was not technically accurately Sikh, nor whether the actor was white or not, none of that is the point. The point is that the character was sold, and played, as not only a genetic superhuman but as an exotic prince out of his time. That was the core of the original character's charisma and distinctiveness.
Different timeline, different way of being introduced and different experiences prior to meeting Kirk and Company. Awake for a year and being under Marcus thumb likely had him knowing playing royalty wasn't going to work.
__________________
"If I hadn't tried, the cost would have been my soul." - Admiral James T. Kirk, Star Trek III: The Search for Spock
BillJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 1 2013, 09:53 PM   #710
BigSnake
Rear Admiral
 
BigSnake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

^ Yeah, and I'm not saying it's not valid for there to be differences between the two versions of the character. I'm just saying it's fallacious to pretend the differences aren't there.

McGivers does not, incidentally, identify him with a confidence as a Sikh on first sight in "Space Seed". She makes an educated and uncertain guess based on factors she doesn't disclose.
__________________
Weasels rip BigJake's flesh!
"I wanna read more" - Dennis "I . . . agree with everything you said" - SPCTRE "I blame Cracked" - J. Allen "Take me off" - The Stig
BigSnake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 1 2013, 09:54 PM   #711
F. King Daniel
Admiral
 
F. King Daniel's Avatar
 
Location: King Daniel Into Darkness
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Would one of these non-practising Sikhs who shave and don't wear a turban be recognizable as a Sikh on-sight as Khan was? Not in a million years. THAT is my point. Not that he isn't a "prince out of time" or whatever. Was Khan Indian? That was the intention - although it was forgotten by Wrath of Khan, when the skin-darkening makeup was absent from Montalban and his followers turned into Aryan youths.

For what it's worth, here is relevant memo.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
F. King Daniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 1 2013, 09:58 PM   #712
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigJake wrote: View Post
^ Yeah, and I'm not saying it's not valid for there to be differences between the two versions of the character. I'm just saying it's fallacious to pretend the differences aren't there.

McGivers does not, incidentally, identify him with a confidence as a Sikh on first sight in "Space Seed". She makes an educated and uncertain guess based on factors she doesn't disclose.
Is Khan ever identified as Sikh, ethnic or otherwise, outside of McGivers guesstimate?

BigJake wrote: View Post
^ Yeah, and I'm not saying it's not valid for there to be differences between the two versions of the character. I'm just saying it's fallacious to pretend the differences aren't there.
I'm not sure there are too many people who are saying the differences aren't there. Just that they enjoy the job Cumberbatch did.
__________________
"If I hadn't tried, the cost would have been my soul." - Admiral James T. Kirk, Star Trek III: The Search for Spock
BillJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 1 2013, 10:01 PM   #713
BigSnake
Rear Admiral
 
BigSnake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Would one of these non-practising Sikhs who shave and don't wear a turban be recognizable as a Sikh on-sight as Khan was?
As I just pointed out, Khan wasn't in fact identified with confidence as a Sikh on sight. McGivers makes a guess, nothing more. The way the episode plays, I have the impression the conceit is supposed to be either that he looks vaguely Punjabi, or (more likely) that he looks vigorous and warrior-like to her and she's familiar with the Sikhs as having historically been great warriors.

(A shame they didn't listen to de Forest Research though, that episode would have been far better if they had!)
__________________
Weasels rip BigJake's flesh!
"I wanna read more" - Dennis "I . . . agree with everything you said" - SPCTRE "I blame Cracked" - J. Allen "Take me off" - The Stig
BigSnake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 1 2013, 10:03 PM   #714
BigSnake
Rear Admiral
 
BigSnake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BillJ wrote: View Post
Is Khan ever identified as Sikh, ethnic or otherwise, outside of McGivers guesstimate?
You know... I don't know, come to think of it. I'm thinking maybe not.
__________________
Weasels rip BigJake's flesh!
"I wanna read more" - Dennis "I . . . agree with everything you said" - SPCTRE "I blame Cracked" - J. Allen "Take me off" - The Stig
BigSnake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 1 2013, 10:05 PM   #715
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigJake wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Is Khan ever identified as Sikh, ethnic or otherwise, outside of McGivers guesstimate?
You know... I don't know, come to think of it. I'm thinking maybe not.
We keep arguing the Sikh thing and we're not even sure if he was ever positively identified as one. I love being a Trekkie!

EDIT: Looking at the transcripts from Chrissie's site, the word Sikh is only listed once and it's McGiver's line from "Space Seed".
__________________
"If I hadn't tried, the cost would have been my soul." - Admiral James T. Kirk, Star Trek III: The Search for Spock
BillJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 1 2013, 10:08 PM   #716
BigSnake
Rear Admiral
 
BigSnake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BillJ wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Is Khan ever identified as Sikh, ethnic or otherwise, outside of McGivers guesstimate?
You know... I don't know, come to think of it. I'm thinking maybe not.
We keep arguing the Sikh thing and we're not even sure if he was ever positively identified as one. I love being a Trekkie!
Heh, amen to that.

(Although, they did give him the Singh surname. So I think they probably did intend him to be Sikh in some form.)
__________________
Weasels rip BigJake's flesh!
"I wanna read more" - Dennis "I . . . agree with everything you said" - SPCTRE "I blame Cracked" - J. Allen "Take me off" - The Stig
BigSnake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 1 2013, 10:14 PM   #717
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Outside of McGiver's guesstimate, there is never a nationality attributed to Khan in any appearance. So everyone's argument hinges on the how competent McGiver's is.
__________________
"If I hadn't tried, the cost would have been my soul." - Admiral James T. Kirk, Star Trek III: The Search for Spock
BillJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 1 2013, 10:19 PM   #718
BigSnake
Rear Admiral
 
BigSnake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

^ It's really why I think the whole tangent about Sikh-or-not-Sikh is ultimately a blind alley.
__________________
Weasels rip BigJake's flesh!
"I wanna read more" - Dennis "I . . . agree with everything you said" - SPCTRE "I blame Cracked" - J. Allen "Take me off" - The Stig
BigSnake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 1 2013, 10:56 PM   #719
SeerSGB
Admiral
 
SeerSGB's Avatar
 
Location: Out There...That Away
View SeerSGB's Twitter Profile
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Rewatching Space Seed right now. Christ, McGivers is a doormat.
__________________
- SeerSGB -
"I've made many mistakes, and it's about time that I did something about that." The Doctor (Deep Breath)
| Blog | Homepage |
SeerSGB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 1 2013, 11:42 PM   #720
Agenda
Fleet Captain
 
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

The problem with the Khan character in STID has little to do with race or being a Sikh or not. The problem is that, other than the name and the genetic engineering aspect, there is nothing recognizable about Khan in Benedict Cumberbatch's performance - or the way he was written.

Montalban played a handsome character who put on a charming performance as Khan, even if he was a dangerous psychopath. Cumberbatch's Khan is just a dangerous psychopath. With all due respect, he's not nearly as handsome and he's nearly not charming.

It's like he was cast as some different character altogether, then, right before shooting began, somebody handed him a new script that had Khan in it and he didn't have the time or inclination to actually change his performance to suit that character.

Of course, one can say that the character was changed in this reality beyond recognition. And if you're good with that, so be it. But for me, it makes it difficult to suspend my disbelief whatsoever.
Agenda is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:52 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.