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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old November 30 2013, 06:09 PM   #16
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

^ All of ENT's effects were done in full HD from the get-go. Not 480-anything.
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Old November 30 2013, 06:11 PM   #17
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Harvey wrote: View Post
The Star Trek franchise is one of CBS' most valuable catalog titles. It'll make back their investment, probably sooner rather than later. TNG in HD hasn't simply been made available on home video (a declining market), but is also being sold in television syndication (isn't it playing in the UK already?) and streaming/download services.
Sky has shown only 2 seasons in HD and there don't seem to be plans to show any more. Haven't heard of anywhere else putting it into syndication. And blu ray and dvd sales are still strong especially for fantasy/sci-fi shows. Look at how well Star Trek into Darkness did or the Hobbit or Games of Thrones. Even if the home video market is declining the portion of that market that TNG HD is able to utilise is remaining very small. Do we have any evidence that TNG HD is selling well any where at all? I'm the only person I know who has bought any of the remastered blu rays and I have many friends who are into Trek/sci-fi.
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Old November 30 2013, 06:20 PM   #18
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Jefferies wrote: View Post
Right now it seems that TNG in HD isn't doing as well as we first thought it might. There was a bit of a hype with the first few seasons and 1-3 consistently ranked within the top 100 blu rays at amazon even several months after their release. Look at season 5 now, it's nowhere to be seen let alone the previous seasons.
That is simply down to their rushed release schedule. I haven't gotten through the whole of season three yet and I will buy season four when I have. I probably won't be buying season five until next spring.
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Old November 30 2013, 06:25 PM   #19
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

MikeS wrote: View Post
Jefferies wrote: View Post
Right now it seems that TNG in HD isn't doing as well as we first thought it might. There was a bit of a hype with the first few seasons and 1-3 consistently ranked within the top 100 blu rays at amazon even several months after their release. Look at season 5 now, it's nowhere to be seen let alone the previous seasons.
That is simply down to their rushed release schedule. I haven't gotten through the whole of season three yet and I will buy season four when I have. I probably won't be buying season five until next spring.
I guess this is definitely something to consider. I'm a "binge watcher" for want of a better term. It usually takes me about a week to get through a season!

However, like MikeS, I do have friends who take it at a far more leisurely pace. How many potential future sales this translates to I'm not sure about though.
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Old November 30 2013, 06:40 PM   #20
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

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If I had a dollar for every time I get an email with that question!

I - like everyone else here - would love DS9 to be remastered in HD next. However, it would be a massive project, far more involved than TNG was.

The simple fact is that there's no news at the moment. Naturally, there's talk about it - but that's all; there are no plans in place and no project has been greenlit. CBS-D are still entrenched in TNGS6, and will still be in TNG mode for a decent amount of time to come.
Why more involved than TNG (outside of those fleet shots)?
I'm wondering the same thing. Considering CGI has been used for years, I would have thought it be easier than taking the original film negatives.
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Old November 30 2013, 06:55 PM   #21
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Jefferies wrote: View Post
Joe_Atari wrote: View Post
CBS-D certainly has people with the passion to do DS9 in HD right; they just need the go ahead (and the $$$) from CBS corporate to do that.
It's first and foremost the money they need. That's where the crux lies. Right now it seems that TNG in HD isn't doing as well as we first thought it might. There was a bit of a hype with the first few seasons and 1-3 consistently ranked within the top 100 blu rays at amazon even several months after their release. Look at season 5 now, it's nowhere to be seen let alone the previous seasons.

I think it was Frontier Trek who mentioned when season 1 was released that it cost 9 million to remaster. That's 63 million for the entire series. This is a huge amount of money they need to earn back before they even start making a profit. I'm optimistic it will happen in the long term some day. However, I'm not convinced that's a popular business model in the entertainment industry. As a result, it seems doubtful at this stage they will green light DS9 or Voyager which have far less recognition than TNG and, therefore, would take much longer to earn a return on an investment.
9 million was the budget for the whole project, not just season one.
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Old November 30 2013, 07:34 PM   #22
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

In that case, CBS has probably made back that money already, just in home video sales alone.

EDIT: For those interested, here's a site that lists home video sales. Here are the Blu-Ray charts for the week season four/Redemption came out:

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/top...k-ended-080413
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Old November 30 2013, 08:07 PM   #23
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Harvey wrote: View Post
In that case, CBS has probably made back that money already, just in home video sales alone.
I agree, this does make the project seem a lot more feasable. Makes me wonder why they are dragging their feet about DS9 and Voyager so much? For 9 million per series it can't be that huge a risk of an investment surely?
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Old November 30 2013, 08:19 PM   #24
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

9 million per series does sound very feasable to me too, and makes me more optimistic that they can make their money back on DS9 and VOY blu rays.
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Old November 30 2013, 08:24 PM   #25
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Jefferies wrote: View Post
Harvey wrote: View Post
In that case, CBS has probably made back that money already, just in home video sales alone.
I agree, this does make the project seem a lot more feasable. Makes me wonder why they are dragging their feet about DS9 and Voyager so much? For 9 million per series it can't be that huge a risk of an investment surely?
I never said 9 million per series. TNG had a 9 million budget. Any budget for DS9 or Voyager would automatically be higher due to the seriously increased workload from re-doing the CG.
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Old November 30 2013, 08:47 PM   #26
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

FrontierTrek wrote: View Post
Jefferies wrote: View Post
Harvey wrote: View Post
In that case, CBS has probably made back that money already, just in home video sales alone.
I agree, this does make the project seem a lot more feasable. Makes me wonder why they are dragging their feet about DS9 and Voyager so much? For 9 million per series it can't be that huge a risk of an investment surely?
I never said 9 million per series. TNG had a 9 million budget. Any budget for DS9 or Voyager would automatically be higher due to the seriously increased workload from re-doing the CG.
Didn't I read somewhere that they don't have to redo all the CGI? That a lot of the scenes were still on a back-up owned by one of the old artists of the company who did the CGI?

Or am I misremembering now?
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Old November 30 2013, 08:58 PM   #27
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

FrontierTrek wrote: View Post
I never said 9 million per series. TNG had a 9 million budget. Any budget for DS9 or Voyager would automatically be higher due to the seriously increased workload from re-doing the CG.
Is that really a forgone conclusion? DS9 doesn't make the full switch to CGI until season 6. Furthermore, the price would surely depend on the quality of the CGI. It doesn't have to be state of the art if that would be the thing that prevented them from doing it at all. Also wont several aspects of the remastering be cheaper a second time round? They must have streamlined and gotten more efficient with TNG. A nother cost cutting factor is that it will be 3 years down the line from when they started TNG so rendering power will be cheaper. Thus, I think if budgeted wisely they could probably pull something off at a similar price tag if not less.
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Old November 30 2013, 09:17 PM   #28
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Joe_Atari wrote: View Post
FrontierTrek wrote: View Post
The simple fact is that there's no news at the moment. Naturally, there's talk about it - but that's all; there are no plans in place and no project has been greenlit. CBS-D are still entrenched in TNGS6, and will still be in TNG mode for a decent amount of time to come.
Thanks FrontierTrek for not using your proximity to the Trek Remastered projects to play the "shill game" as some others have by exhorting fandom to buy every current HD release to "support" the release of DS9 in HD. You and TrekCore are a credit to the franchise, which you promote through unique and compelling features rather than mindless hype. On a semi-related note, I for one am looking forward to the BOBW screencaps and EAS' incorporating them into its Wolf 359 ship analyses.

Everyone should keep in mind that DS9 -- and VOY, and every Trek series regardless of popularity -- comprise an extremely valuable property for CBS and they must make it available in HD in order to continue to monetize it in the future. How that is done (rather than if it will be done) is the real question, but with the bar set quite high with the TNG-R project I personally doubt we'll get an SD upscale (ala X-Files, Farscape, et al) but it is certainly possible, at least in terms of the CGI VFX in later seasons. DS9 fans should keep their eye on the ball and let CBS know in no uncertain terms that nothing short of a complete HD remastering of the series will be acceptable. Complicating things is that by the time the DS9-R project likely materializes, the reality is that the relevance of packaged media will be significantly diminished (by exactly how much is anyone's guess); Blu-ray will certainly not disappear in that time, but its sales volume will continue to be eroded by streaming services as that technology improves. Even now Netflix is actively de-emphasizing its disc-by-mail service in favor of its streaming offerings; expect much the same thing from Amazon in the years (or even months) to come.

CBS-D certainly has people with the passion to do DS9 in HD right; they just need the go ahead (and the $$$) from CBS corporate to do that.
That's funny about Netflix - just about every time I search it for a movie, I get back "not available for streaming," but available on disc.

While I refuse to pay more for discs-in-the-mail rental, I will and do buy blurays. I don't think streaming can match its quality. And when it comes to movies and shows I like, and will watch again, I want to physically own it and not have to rely on a streaming service that may or may not have it, may or may not work, may or may not be available, that I have to pay for monthly, etc.

If TNG sales are needed to greenlight a DS9 bluray effort - I'd be worried about that. I don't know how the sales have been, but availability has been awful. And while prior seasons got some promotion, with Target offering combo deals with the standalone releases (S3+BoBW, S4+Redemption), I did not see Season 5 get anything like that. Retailers seem to be poo-pooing the TNG bluray releases.

I never had TNG on DVD so am happily and eagerly buying the bluray releases right as they come out. The apparent markdowns on release weeks have been good - season 5 is now about $20 more than I paid for it.

BBC American airs TNG a lot. I watch it in HD, but the episodes clearly aren't HD. I can't watch it after having seen the bluray versions.

I also don't have DS9 on disc at all. I'd like to watch it again - I watched it all as it aired, but it's the series I remember the least, so many would feel like first-viewing again, which would be fun. But I'm not buying DVDs anymore.
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Old November 30 2013, 09:21 PM   #29
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

If DS9 went all-CGI in the last couple of seasons, then why does the second Defiant still have the original NX-74205 registry? Don't tell me it would have broken the bank to just fix that one thing. How important can "stock footage" still be, in the age of universal CGI?

At least they can, conceivably, fix this in DS9-R.
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Old November 30 2013, 11:05 PM   #30
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Mage wrote: View Post
Didn't I read somewhere that they don't have to redo all the CGI? That a lot of the scenes were still on a back-up owned by one of the old artists of the company who did the CGI?

Or am I misremembering now?
You most likely read that at my article on DS9 HD a while back. Yes, that's true - a lot are. But accounting for everything? That's a tough job. Plus, the stuff they do have - what state is it in? Is it complete? Which elements are missing? How easy are they to recreate? What holds up? What needs to be re-textured?

There are so many unknowns and so many potential problems. It ain't an easy proposition!

Jefferies wrote: View Post
Is that really a forgone conclusion? DS9 doesn't make the full switch to CGI until season 6. Furthermore, the price would surely depend on the quality of the CGI. [...]
Also wont several aspects of the remastering be cheaper a second time round? They must have streamlined and gotten more efficient with TNG. A nother cost cutting factor is that it will be 3 years down the line from when they started TNG so rendering power will be cheaper. Thus, I think if budgeted wisely they could probably pull something off at a similar price tag if not less.
Yes, it's a forgone conclusion.

True, they've become so much more streamlined, and the everyday scanning and building of episodes along with compositing and "basic" CG is not a problem. But again, DS9's CG is NOT basic. The problem isn't in creating something at the same difficulty level, the problem is MATCHING the CG that was already done.

Definitely a higher budget. Without any doubts.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
If DS9 went all-CGI in the last couple of seasons, then why does the second Defiant still have the original NX-74205 registry? Don't tell me it would have broken the bank to just fix that one thing. How important can "stock footage" still be, in the age of universal CGI?

At least they can, conceivably, fix this in DS9-R.
It didn't go ALL CG. It went 95% CG. They still used physical models, right up to the last episode. Mostly, it's a mish-mash. Again, this makes things very complicated.
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