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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old November 30 2013, 01:05 AM   #676
Set Harth
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Belz... wrote: View Post
What you find credible has no bearing on reality.
A dose of reality follows. Here you pretend you don't know why Khan should be anything like himself, which is ridiculous on its face, but whatever:

Belz... wrote: View Post
You still haven't told me why you think this Khan should ressemble the other Khan in any way.
Here you act as if this is some unanswerable question and something I'm trying to "avoid", which is completely absurd given my posts on the subject since 2009:

Belz... wrote: View Post
I suspect you can't because you painted yourself in a corner, and are now trying to avoid the issue by addressing me instead of it.
And here it turns out that you knew what the deal was all along:

Belz wrote:
it splinters from the previous timeline
So it seems like you're playing games at this point, unless you really don't get how "splinters from the previous timeline" does not mean "everything is up for grabs".
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Old November 30 2013, 01:08 AM   #677
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

He gets some great Kirk moments in without actually being Shatner being Kirk. Very good, A+++
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Old November 30 2013, 01:11 AM   #678
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Pine does subtly use some Shatner/Kirk mannerisms at times.
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Old November 30 2013, 01:39 AM   #679
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Yes subtly.. it's never parody. Which I think it could easily have been
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Old November 30 2013, 01:55 AM   #680
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigJake wrote: View Post
I wonder: were movies like Final Frontier, Nemesis and Insurrection victims of fan boredom or fan rage? How meaningful a distinction is that?
Personal experience?

STV: "Why are they putting seatbelts in the theaters? To keep people from leaving". It wasn't so much anger as disappointment. They offer up this premise that was both big and classic TOS in style--Kirk meets God--and everything was just meh.

Insurrection: Hey looks it's a TNG story...that we've seen a half dozen times on the show.

Nemesis: I paid $7.50 for this?
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Old November 30 2013, 03:16 AM   #681
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote: View Post
What you find credible has no bearing on reality.
A dose of reality follows. Here you pretend you don't know why Khan should be anything like himself, which is ridiculous on its face, but whatever:

Belz... wrote: View Post
You still haven't told me why you think this Khan should ressemble the other Khan in any way.
Here you act as if this is some unanswerable question and something I'm trying to "avoid", which is completely absurd given my posts on the subject since 2009:

Belz... wrote: View Post
I suspect you can't because you painted yourself in a corner, and are now trying to avoid the issue by addressing me instead of it.
And here it turns out that you knew what the deal was all along:

Belz wrote:
it splinters from the previous timeline
So it seems like you're playing games at this point, unless you really don't get how "splinters from the previous timeline" does not mean "everything is up for grabs".
All right, enough. Argue the points, but if that can't be managed without taking petty swipes at each other, then take it to PM or take it off-board altogether. It doesn't belong here.
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Old November 30 2013, 06:52 AM   #682
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
I wonder: were movies like Final Frontier, Nemesis and Insurrection victims of fan boredom or fan rage? How meaningful a distinction is that?
Personal experience?

STV: "Why are they putting seatbelts in the theaters? To keep people from leaving". It wasn't so much anger as disappointment. They offer up this premise that was both big and classic TOS in style--Kirk meets God--and everything was just meh.

Insurrection: Hey looks it's a TNG story...that we've seen a half dozen times on the show.

Nemesis: I paid $7.50 for this?
And that's not to mention the fan rage against Voyager and Enterprise and (to a slightly lesser extent) DS9 on television.

Let's face it - a very small but very vocal minority of Trek fans has always instinctively hated the "Trek of the moment" no matter what it was, simply because it wasn't the "Trek they were familiar and comfortable with" - whether that be TOS, TNG, etc.

Personally I've been a Trek fan since TOS, and I think the last two movies were among the best. And one of the nicest things - with both Trek (09) and STID, I saw them in a theater full of moviegoers who loved it, cheered the crew on and enjoyed every moment of the film. There was applause at the end credits.

Contrast that with Nemesis or Insurrection, which I saw (on the opening weekend) in near-empty theaters and slunk out afterwards basically embarrassed to be seen at the Star Trek movie.
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Old November 30 2013, 07:31 AM   #683
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
I wonder: were movies like Final Frontier, Nemesis and Insurrection victims of fan boredom or fan rage? How meaningful a distinction is that?
As a brand new Trek fan in December 1979 - I loved the movie - the fan anger I kept meeting in my early days of fandom was very disturbing. While many were welcoming of brand new members, there was still scathing criticism of ST:TMP and it always felt directed at me. "You can't call yourself a Star Trek fan if you haven't see the good stuff that came before. And if you'd been there at the beginning, you'd agree with us that TMP is terrible."

As a well-travelled fan by the time of ST V, we followed the rumours throughout production and ran a "special sealed section" in our regular newsletter. On opening night we had little choice than to take the film more as a satire. We had a great time, but it was at Shatner's expense.

But yes, some new and much older fans loved this film and said it was closer to the Trek of old.

IDIC.
I loved TMP. I saw it five times in the theatre, and on two of those occasions I'd dragged my family along, plus some of my grandmother's friends (my grandmother was a William Shatner fan). I do feel a bit sorry for the fans who have never seen this movie as it was meant to be seen - on a big theatre screen. The experience is completely different from seeing it on TV.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
the only thing I was angry about was when the Klingon used the Voyager probe for target practice.
It was a Pioneer. And the scriptwriters wanted you to be angry.
Thank you for clarifying. For some reason I recalled it as being one of the other Voyager probes, but yeah, it's even worse for them to destroy one of the Pioneer ones... I know I'm anthropomorphizing, but I feel some degree of affection for those probes, traveling so far from earth and being so lonely out there without even a single scrap of contact with Earth.

I guess a lot of audience members didn't realize they were supposed to be angry. I remember feeling appalled at how some people thought it was a huge joke. But then I guess they hadn't read Carl Sagan's books and articles about these probes and how much time and effort went into designing them, making them work, and getting them launched - never mind actually getting all that lovely data back.

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
borgboy wrote: View Post
The new movies have all new actors playing slightly different versions of the original cast. That's very similar enough to a reboot that I don't have a problem calling it a reboot. It's not the purest version of a reboot though, not with Prime Spock, Nero destroying Vulcan, etc, and those are exciting and interesting changes imo.
And much easier to explain/accept than switching Saaviks in midstream.
borgboy wrote: View Post
Good point about Saavik. I just accept that roles get recast and never worried about it much, and I liked both actors in the role in their own way. I think Kirstie Alley had more of an edge to her, and Robin Curtis's Saavik seems more sweet, in a weird Vulcan way.
Robin Curtis' Saavik... sweet???

I thought she had all the appeal of a piece of cardboard... no personality whatsoever, whereas Kirstie Alley's Saavik was an actual, relatable character. But regardless of the actress, Saavik's part in the movie trilogy continued on seamlessly from movie to movie. The only real WTF moment came in TVH, when they're on Vulcan, it's three months later, and only then is Saavik getting around to mentioning to Kirk that his son saved her life and died bravely. She couldn't have spared a minute to tell him that before?
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Old November 30 2013, 07:42 AM   #684
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Pioneer 10 shrieking in agony upon being struck by blaster fire was both anthropomorphic and comical. The probe being hard to hit was also comical, as was Klaa's targeting scope. The scene was infuriating, because of its high level of banality, like most of STV.
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Old November 30 2013, 08:51 AM   #685
Therin of Andor
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

CaptJimboJones wrote: View Post
Let's face it - a very small but very vocal minority of Trek fans has always instinctively hated the "Trek of the moment" no matter what it was, simply because it wasn't the "Trek they were familiar and comfortable with" - whether that be TOS, TNG, etc.
Yep. Always my experience - and the same people are often more forgiving as the next new Trek comes along. I know people who deflected their initial resistance to TNG into hatred for DS9. It doesn't say much for fans' ability to embrace IDIC.

Personally I've been a Trek fan since TOS, and I think the last two movies were among the best. And one of the nicest things - with both Trek (09) and STID, I saw them in a theater full of moviegoers who loved it, cheered the crew on and enjoyed every moment of the film. There was applause at the end credits.
Indeed!

Contrast that with Nemesis or Insurrection, which I saw (on the opening weekend) in near-empty theaters and slunk out afterwards basically embarrassed to be seen at the Star Trek movie.
With "Nemesis", yes, I saw it on opening night in a near-empty suburban cinema (huge gala premieres for most of the others, but no one organised one for "Nemesis"). Sigh.
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Old November 30 2013, 11:02 AM   #686
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

M'Sharak wrote: View Post
Yes, there have been some who looked upon all of that as pandering but, even among those who weren't so happy with the movies we got, there hasn't been what any reasonable person would describe as a high incidence of fan rage. Were those fan-rage suppression tactics? Rather successful ones, if so.
I don't know, Facebook seems to be jam-packed with over-the-top levels of fanrage. Just look at the dozens of ignorant cries of "Khan is a Sikh!" whenever Startrek.com posts a picture of Benedict Cumberbatch to hype the latest issue of the Khan prequel comic.
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Old November 30 2013, 11:58 AM   #687
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Pioneer 10 shrieking in agony upon being struck by blaster fire was both anthropomorphic and comical. The probe being hard to hit was also comical, as was Klaa's targeting scope. The scene was infuriating, because of its high level of banality, like most of STV.
Ain't that the truth? Most shockingly of all is that this came from William "let's make it more theatrical" Shatner, himself! How the hell does he come out with something so lame, of all people? Even if he doesn't really "get" STAR TREK, himself, nevermind all that ... it shouldn't have owed for spectacle and over-the-top performances. I know that Shatner's cited "studio interference," basically, but I don't really buy that. But what a perfect, one-worded description for STAR TREK V ... "banal." It really does sum it up, quite nicely, doesn't it?
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Old November 30 2013, 12:02 PM   #688
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

M'Sharak wrote: View Post
The fact that it's still being argued, this far on, whether or not Star Trek has been rebooted points up that the term "reboot" has come to have so many different definitions for so many different people that it's become effectively meaningless as a one-word description of anything, and should henceforth be dropped from the working vocabulary. Srsly. Get rid of it.
The fact that it's being argued means one side of the argument should stop using the word ? That makes no sense to me. In fact, it's the exact opposite. If it's being debated, then both sides will argue the term. What other term would you suggest ?

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Here you pretend you don't know why Khan should be anything like himself
The characters will be anything they write them to be. Could you provide any reason why changes can't or shouldn't be made along the way ?
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Old November 30 2013, 01:25 PM   #689
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

"it splinters from the previous timeline" pretty much covers it.

This does not equate to "it has no connection to the previous timeline whatsoever and so absolutely anything from prior canon can be thrown out".

Khan is from before the timelines diverge, it's as simple as that.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote:
Just look at the dozens of ignorant cries of "Khan is a Sikh!" whenever Startrek.com posts a picture of Benedict Cumberbatch to hype the latest issue of the Khan prequel comic.
Speaking of which:
http://www.startrek.com/uploads/asse.../Use-Three.jpg
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Old November 30 2013, 01:34 PM   #690
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
M'Sharak wrote: View Post
Yes, there have been some who looked upon all of that as pandering but, even among those who weren't so happy with the movies we got, there hasn't been what any reasonable person would describe as a high incidence of fan rage. Were those fan-rage suppression tactics? Rather successful ones, if so.
I don't know, Facebook seems to be jam-packed with over-the-top levels of fanrage. Just look at the dozens of ignorant cries of "Khan is a Sikh!" whenever Startrek.com posts a picture of Benedict Cumberbatch to hype the latest issue of the Khan prequel comic.
Check out most of the nasty comments about STID on the Facebook page of Star Trek: Phase II as well.
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