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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old November 29 2013, 05:06 AM   #31
DonIago
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

I think this is the first time I've ever seen it said that DS9 became -more- like TNG over time.
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Old November 29 2013, 05:21 AM   #32
dub
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
My thoughts on Deep Space Nine are as follows:

The show started out kind of different and interesting. But then after a couple seasons, they started to lose confidence in DS9 and started doing everything it could to make it more like TNG. For example, bringing in Worf and thusly, the entire Klingon story ark from TNG. Sisko now had to be made a Captain and given his own little starship, so that the base is just a platform, more or less for the Defiant and its exploits. Bringing back all of these TNG elements and making DS9 fall more in line with traditional STAR TREK really hurt its claims to being a "unique" series.
That's interesting. To me, early DS9 felt more TNG with its more episodic format, while later seasons became more serialized (or had more layers of continuing arcs) and lots of guest stars who came back often and had depth and in some cases arcs of their own which was what made it more unique to me.
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Old November 29 2013, 07:15 AM   #33
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

TNG gets a lot of flak simply because it was done in episodic format.

I think at the time, that format was fine. Could TNG have benefitted from an ongoing arc? Definitely! We might have missed out on some stellar episodes though because of it.

Most of DS9 once the war kicks in is war war war, and personally I don't even think that well done (I am rewatching it a second time right now, and I am enjoying it more than the first time, so I may change my mind on a few things).

I just finished S2 of DS9, and while it's been decent so far, no way does it compare to TNG's later seasons. We'll see how S3 holds out.
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Old November 29 2013, 07:22 AM   #34
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

I don't think most people would say that the early seasons of DS9 are on par with the later seasons of TNG. Much like TNG, DS9 took a couple of seasons to find its footing.
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Old November 29 2013, 10:16 AM   #35
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

GalaxyX wrote: View Post
Most of DS9 once the war kicks in is war war war, and personally I don't even think that well done
Actually, I have found that one of the primary sources of complaint directed toward Deep Space Nine's last two seasons is there being too many episodes that don't tie into the overall war arc. Episodes like "His Way," "Take Me Out to the Holosuite," and "Badda-Bing, Badda-Bang" are often derided for their seeming inconsequence and lack of relevancy to the overall plot. I, of course, am in in complete disagreement with these criticisms though .

So it can't be said that DS9's sole focus toward the end was the Dominion War. In fact, by that point, the show had built up a variety of other interweaving storylines such as those involving the Prophets, Ferengi, and countless individuals characters that only occasionally intersected with the War.

DonIago wrote: View Post
I don't think most people would say that the early seasons of DS9 are on par with the later seasons of TNG. Much like TNG, DS9 took a couple of seasons to find its footing.
Count me in as someone who vastly prefers DS9’s early seasons to the final years of TNG. At least in my view, Deep Space Nine had already surpassed the average quality of its illustrious predecessor half way through its second year—especially when compared with TNG’s seventh season, with which it ran concurrently.

The seventh season of The Next Generation embodied what that series had become in its later years: a lazy, pompous, unambitious shadow of its former self. Though TNG season 7 had a handful of great episodes such as “Parallels,” “Lower Decks,” “All Good Things…”, they were lost in a vast sea of mediocrity. (In stark contrast, Deep Space Nine’s seventh season was busy introducing new characters and elements, telling daring new stories, and shaking up the status quo.)

Meanwhile, as The Next Generation drifted further into complacency, Deep Space Nine was blooming into the vibrant, complex tapestry it would become for the remainder of its run. After kicking off with a risky series of episodes in the form of the Circle Trilogy, DS9 season two made a concerted effort to establish its own identity by further incorporating its colorful array of recurring characters and adding to the intricacies of its primary alien cultures and the changing scene of interstellar politics. Finally, the season culminated in the introduction of the Dominion, the Alpha Quadrant’s most multi-faceted threat.

In the end, it’s all a matter of personal preference. However, I do feel that TNG’s sixth and seventh seasons are afforded an excessive amount of leniency compared to their contemporary DS9 seasons.
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Old November 30 2013, 12:53 AM   #36
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

By "later seasons" of TNG I meant 4-5, as opposed to 1-2.
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Old November 30 2013, 01:13 AM   #37
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

That makes sense. Sorry that I misunderstood you .
I agree that TNG reached its peak during the middle seasons. I actually consider TNG season 3 to be the most consistent season —aesthetically and dramatically— out of the entire Star Trek franchise.
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Old November 30 2013, 10:25 AM   #38
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

dub wrote: View Post
That's interesting. To me, early DS9 felt more TNG with its more episodic format, while later seasons became more serialized (or had more layers of continuing arcs) and lots of guest stars who came back often and had depth and in some cases arcs of their own which was what made it more unique to me.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not writing off DS9 as a subpar series. I just felt that the franchise fell back on its comfort zone when the ideas this particular series started out with weren't commercial enough.

Too much TNG carried over to DS9, I felt. They should've braved a whole new production crew and Creative Team.

I love Herman Zimmerman's take on the Enterprise-D, it's bridge and hallways. Hated the engine room with a heart-felt passion and just about everything else Herman ever did. "Z" is a lovable guy, a sweet soul. But I hate his design sense, for the most part, which is all up in DS9, everywhere you look at, on and in the station.
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Old December 3 2013, 07:16 AM   #39
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

I love Herman Zimmerman's take on the Enterprise-D, it's bridge and hallways. Hated the engine room with a heart-felt passion and just about everything else Herman ever did. "Z" is a lovable guy, a sweet soul. But I hate his design sense, for the most part, which is all up in DS9, everywhere you look at, on and in the station.
Heresy!!!

I don't think there's anything I don't love about TNG's interior designs. The engine room was the most kick ass room of all though IMO.

DS9's design hasn't really grown on me at all. I think the station outside is this hideous spider looking thing, and inside looks like some neon Tokyo/Blade Runner inspired sets. I let it slide because it's supposed to be "alien" (Cardassian design)
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Old December 3 2013, 09:51 AM   #40
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

I find DS9's set the more intriguing and dynamic than TNG's Winnebago beige look.
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Old December 5 2013, 10:17 PM   #41
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

I didn't like Kira when I watched it when I was younger but later when I rewatched the show and just saw fiction differently she became my favorite character.

I agree Bajoran episodes tend to be dull, but that's mostly because all the Bajoran males are terrible, not because of Kira. I thought Progress was a good episode. A lot of the early Kira episodes were about her healing herself from the trench mentality of fighting in the Occupation, and I think that's one of the stronger periods of her character.

I didn't have any problem with later seasons having episodes that weren't in the war arc, but the thing about those episodes is that they're really badly written. You have the cartoony Take Me Out To The Holosuite and Bada-Bing, then you have Ezri helm a bad CSI episode. Also most of the non-war S7 episodes were about the crew's weird fetishization of 1940's lounge music.

I think TNG season 6 is way better than the early DS9 seasons, but it's true S7 had way too many stinkers.
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Old December 5 2013, 11:58 PM   #42
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

GalaxyX wrote: View Post
Heresy!!!

I don't think there's anything I don't love about TNG's interior designs. The engine room was the most kick ass room of all though IMO.

DS9's design hasn't really grown on me at all. I think the station outside is this hideous spider looking thing, and inside looks like some neon Tokyo/Blade Runner inspired sets. I let it slide because it's supposed to be "alien" (Cardassian design)
"Z" and Mike Okuda depended entirely too much on those damn LCARS!!! Drove me nuts how every computer, no matter what planet you're on, what ship you visit or house you're in, everything uses it - enough with the LCARS!!! And Deep Space Nine the station itself - is, surprisingly, not very well executed. It looks like a model kit from a hobby shop. It's not an interesting visual to me, at all. It's almost as hateful as that bulbous top they call Space Dock, starting with Search for Spock.

Herman Zimmerman is not untalented or unlikable. He's just not a visionary, as far as Interior Designers go. He lucked out having one cool idea that solved one show's design problem and would not stray from it - it got BORING!!!
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Old December 6 2013, 12:08 AM   #43
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
I find DS9's set the more intriguing and dynamic than TNG's Winnebago beige look.
The Next Generation looks classy and elegant. The Enterprise, especially, looks sumptuous. It's lavishly appointed and doesn't scream "high tech," the way some sci-fi shows have a tendency to do. And the "D" looks very sleek and futuristic, without being an incredibly "busy" looking CGI nightmare, as later Enterprise vessels became. My only complaint about the "D," really, was the warp core. Neon rings encased in frosted plastic blinking up ... blinking down ... oooh ... power ...!!! Hateful, "Z" ... just hateful.
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Old December 6 2013, 04:38 AM   #44
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
GalaxyX wrote: View Post
Heresy!!!

I don't think there's anything I don't love about TNG's interior designs. The engine room was the most kick ass room of all though IMO.

DS9's design hasn't really grown on me at all. I think the station outside is this hideous spider looking thing, and inside looks like some neon Tokyo/Blade Runner inspired sets. I let it slide because it's supposed to be "alien" (Cardassian design)
"Z" and Mike Okuda depended entirely too much on those damn LCARS!!! Drove me nuts how every computer, no matter what planet you're on, what ship you visit or house you're in, everything uses it - enough with the LCARS!!! And Deep Space Nine the station itself - is, surprisingly, not very well executed. It looks like a model kit from a hobby shop. It's not an interesting visual to me, at all. It's almost as hateful as that bulbous top they call Space Dock, starting with Search for Spock.

Herman Zimmerman is not untalented or unlikable. He's just not a visionary, as far as Interior Designers go. He lucked out having one cool idea that solved one show's design problem and would not stray from it - it got BORING!!!
Can't say I agree with any of this. I thought the design of DS9 was beautiful and dark. A perfect fit for the show. I also loved the interiors. The only thing I didn't care for was the computer display design. And I absolutely love Spacedock. My first reaction when I saw it in TSFS was "wow!"

I do agree with your later post that the Enterprise D looks better and is more memorable and unique than the over-designed E.
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Old December 8 2013, 11:12 PM   #45
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Re: My thoughts on DS9

dub wrote: View Post
I do agree with your later post that the Enterprise D looks better and is more memorable and unique than the over-designed E.
At least we can agree on something ...
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