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Old November 27 2013, 06:24 PM   #271
Guy Gardener
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Re: Lt. Kim

Torres was lieutenant junior grade.

Tom was full lieutenant.
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Old November 27 2013, 07:26 PM   #272
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Re: Lt. Kim

Yeah, I would have been fine with promoting Torres to full LT and even LCDR by the end of the show.
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Old November 27 2013, 09:01 PM   #273
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Re: Lt. Kim

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
You do remember that Carey worked under Picard on the Enterprise?

(Josh played unnamed lieutenant in TNG Justice)

He's fine with the idle of his career path.
Carey was an Ensign in Justice, which was in 2364. In 2371, 7 years later, he's a full Lt. and next in line to become Chief Engineer of Voyager. To compare, when LaForge took over as Chief Engineer of a ship 10x as large, he had only been newly promoted to full Lt. and was previously the Conn Officer. Maybe Picard was generous with his officers' recommendations for promotion? I mean, he did make Wesley a full Ensign and O'Brien masqueraded as a full Lt. for awhile, as well.

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Torres was lieutenant junior grade.

Tom was full lieutenant.
Why would Torres be Chief Engineer yet not have at least the same (provisional) rank as Carey? It would be confusing as to who had the authority around there... maybe it came down to which was more intimidating?
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Old November 27 2013, 09:22 PM   #274
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Re: Lt. Kim

Is it possible that B'Elanna was a pretend Chief Engineer, a stuffed shirt? Sure she made the decisions and looked after the engines, but if Carey did 90 percent of the paperwork, it's not like she needed the rank to get things done.

O'Brien was the tactical Officer on the Rutledge, despite not having a commission.

Sometimes titles give powers that do no reflect rank.

Other times title create expectations that are not backed up rank.

Despite the Doctor's prancing, he is a soulless light bulb, the real CMO was his nurse.

First Kes, then Tom.

Either one of them briefly had a narrow window within which they could order Kathryn to do almost anything as long as it was with in a medical remit.
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Old November 27 2013, 09:48 PM   #275
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Re: Lt. Kim

Honestly, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me why anyone on that ship would get promoted. There's nowhere to go. No one is leaving that ship for a very, very long time. If you kept giving promotions to everyone who deserved it*, how many years would it take until it was a ship crewed almost entirely by Lt. Commanders?**

*Still not Harry.

**And Harry.
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Old November 27 2013, 10:01 PM   #276
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Re: Lt. Kim

Well just for general morale. Promotion parties are fun and you have to find a way to motivate that crew somehow. I would make Harry a J.G. if for no other reason than to set him apart from his peers. (fellow Ops personnel if there are any) The same for Torres. Since Janeway was just picking out arbitrary provisional ranks for the Maquis people anyway, why didn't she just tell Torres to be a LT? That one didn't make a whole lot of sense. Maybe Janeway just didn't like Carey.
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Old November 27 2013, 10:19 PM   #277
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Re: Lt. Kim

AgentCoop wrote: View Post
Honestly, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me why anyone on that ship would get promoted. There's nowhere to go. No one is leaving that ship for a very, very long time. If you kept giving promotions to everyone who deserved it*, how many years would it take until it was a ship crewed almost entirely by Lt. Commanders?**

*Still not Harry.

**And Harry.
You remember all the dead people who had jobs that still needed to be done?

Worf got a promotion when Tasha died, and then he got another promotion when Data briefly died in season 6 or 7.
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Old November 27 2013, 11:53 PM   #278
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Re: Lt. Kim

Anwar wrote: View Post
Well, aside from Tuvok no one else in the crew ever got promoted.

How come no one complains over that too?
Didn't Tom get promoted? At the very least he got his demoted rank back.
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Old November 27 2013, 11:56 PM   #279
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Re: Lt. Kim

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Is it possible that B'Elanna was a pretend Chief Engineer, a stuffed shirt? Sure she made the decisions and looked after the engines, but if Carey did 90 percent of the paperwork, it's not like she needed the rank to get things done.

O'Brien was the tactical Officer on the Rutledge, despite not having a commission.

Sometimes titles give powers that do no reflect rank.

Other times title create expectations that are not backed up rank.

Despite the Doctor's prancing, he is a soulless light bulb, the real CMO was his nurse.

First Kes, then Tom.

Either one of them briefly had a narrow window within which they could order Kathryn to do almost anything as long as it was with in a medical remit.
I don't remember things ever going quite like that. I don't think Kes would've had the offical power to do anything like declare the captain unfit. I don't think Tom ever had the offical rank of CMO, but then I'm not sure that Doctor ever had that offical title even if he was acting in that capacity de facto.
It's an interesting point to contemplate.
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Old November 28 2013, 12:09 AM   #280
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Re: Lt. Kim

My point was that the Doctor should never have been allowed to be the CMO any more than the antimatter injectors should have been allowed to be the Chief Engineer.

But yes, he was the CMO.

Even when Lynnis and Kes got their Doctorates, and Lynnis was wearing a uniform, proving that she was an Officer in some right, maybe even authentically, the Doctor in Before and After still seemed to be CMO.
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Old November 28 2013, 12:23 AM   #281
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Re: Lt. Kim

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
My point was that the Doctor should never have been allowed to be the CMO any more than the antimatter injectors should have been allowed to be the Chief Engineer.

But yes, he was the CMO.

Even when Lynnis and Kes got their Doctorates, and Lynnis was wearing a uniform, proving that she was an Officer in some right, maybe even authentically, the Doctor in Before and After still seemed to be CMO.
Do you not think that by the end of the series the Doctor was sentient? I think he was by the end, but not at the beginning, and it's difficult to say exactly when it happened. The hologram as a metaphor for oppressed minorities was an interesting story for the series. It was thought provoking and something I still don't feel was adequetly resolved.
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Old November 28 2013, 12:48 AM   #282
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Re: Lt. Kim

I'm sure Zimmerman is a fraud.

Starfleet would have given him a copy of the Moriarty program, and told him to make it more cow like.
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Old November 28 2013, 03:08 AM   #283
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Re: Lt. Kim

AgentCoop wrote: View Post
Honestly, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me why anyone on that ship would get promoted. There's nowhere to go. No one is leaving that ship for a very, very long time. If you kept giving promotions to everyone who deserved it*, how many years would it take until it was a ship crewed almost entirely by Lt. Commanders?**
Yep, someone has to do the grunt work.
Who do you order to do the grunt work if everyone is of equal rank?
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Old November 28 2013, 03:14 AM   #284
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Re: Lt. Kim

borgboy wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
My point was that the Doctor should never have been allowed to be the CMO any more than the antimatter injectors should have been allowed to be the Chief Engineer.

But yes, he was the CMO.

Even when Lynnis and Kes got their Doctorates, and Lynnis was wearing a uniform, proving that she was an Officer in some right, maybe even authentically, the Doctor in Before and After still seemed to be CMO.
Do you not think that by the end of the series the Doctor was sentient? I think he was by the end, but not at the beginning, and it's difficult to say exactly when it happened. The hologram as a metaphor for oppressed minorities was an interesting story for the series. It was thought provoking and something I still don't feel was adequetly resolved.
It was during "Flesh & Blood" when he put the crew of Voyager in harms way, that's when he became a full sentient being.
The EMH is programmed "To do no harm".
He's a machine, he doesn't have a choice but to obey his prime programming but in "F&B" he made a choice. He overrode his most basic programming and fully gained free will. He was no longer a slave to his programming, he was free. That's why Janeway didn't punish him, he achieved his goal as an independent fully functional being.
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Old November 28 2013, 03:18 AM   #285
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Re: Lt. Kim

exodus wrote: View Post
AgentCoop wrote: View Post
Honestly, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me why anyone on that ship would get promoted. There's nowhere to go. No one is leaving that ship for a very, very long time. If you kept giving promotions to everyone who deserved it*, how many years would it take until it was a ship crewed almost entirely by Lt. Commanders?**
Yep, someone has to do the grunt work.
Who do you order to do the grunt work if everyone is of equal rank?
This whole conversation has been about Harry Kim, a senior staff bridge officer and department head. He is not a grunt. Shouldn't he maybe outrank the grunts in order to set himself apart as a senior officer on the ship? I'm not try trying to argue with you but at some point logic should take over.
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