RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,565
Posts: 5,423,213
Members: 24,809
Currently online: 500
Newest member: Dobian

TrekToday headlines

Star Trek: Alien Domain Game Announced
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Red Shirt Diaries Episode Three
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Made Out Of Mudd Photonovel
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Takei Has Growth Removed
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Retro Review: Tears of the Prophets
By: Michelle on Sep 12

New Wizkids Attack Wing Ships
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12

Coto Drama Sold To Fox
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12

Braga Inks Deal
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12

Remastered Original Series Re-release
By: T'Bonz on Sep 11

UK Trek Ships Calendar Debuts
By: T'Bonz on Sep 10


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Fandom > Fan Art

Fan Art Post your Trek fan art here, including hobby models and collectibles.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 26 2013, 03:51 PM   #886
Shat Happens
Captain
 
Shat Happens's Avatar
 
Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Reliant is a mystery. Someone was seen falling DOWN her intermix -
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a...twokhd0922.jpg

I, for one, never figured out how a vertical intermix like the Constitution config fits there.
Shat Happens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 26 2013, 04:13 PM   #887
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

@Bob - the 8' wide corridor stems from the width of the corridor + the framework around it. You can see here at the intersection the full width of the corridor once you account for the framework. One way of thinking about it is take a TOS 8' corridor and then add framework on the interior.
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 26 2013, 04:37 PM   #888
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

@ blssdwlf - I see and did a recalculation. We have Shatner's body height and we see how wide the corridor walking floor area (the innermost two parallel lines in the studio set blueprint) is in relation to Mr. Shatner (I arrived at 132 cm).

Now I arrive at an approximate width of 5.4 meters for the deck platforms surrounding the intermix shaft below the main engine room level.

At 5.4 m (305 m Enterprise O.L.) the port and starboard side exterior hull would be too thin, so obviously a 6.3 m connecting dorsal pylon width (355 m Enterprise O.L.) would be the better option, but it looks like that shaft could still fit into the connecting dorsal pylon.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein

Last edited by Robert Comsol; November 26 2013 at 04:54 PM. Reason: recalculation
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 26 2013, 05:04 PM   #889
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Shat Happens wrote: View Post
Reliant is a mystery. Someone was seen falling DOWN her intermix -
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a...twokhd0922.jpg

I, for one, never figured out how a vertical intermix like the Constitution config fits there.
You might have two options
  • assuming that at some point the horizontal shaft has to make a turn and go vertical to feed the "deflection crystal" we may just look at the core segment right below the crystal (since this crystal was blown up earlier the area has been sealed and we'd looking at a dead end).
  • assuming that these shafts also run up the roll-bar and feed the "megaphasers" we might be looking at the instant effect the disruption of the port nacelle has on the adjacent interior area in the port side hull.
Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 26 2013, 05:07 PM   #890
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

I just tried placing the engine room in a 1000' TMP E where the impulse engine is and it doesn't fit. (Vertical shaft lined up the dome.) The top level sticks out of the deflection crystal dome by 6' and the lower deck platforms stick out of the neck by a foot or two on each side. Also, the side corridors in front of the foyer of the blue corridor stick down from the undercut. And lastly, the horizontal conduit room in it's forced-perspective form also sticks out of the bottom of the impulse drive.

On a larger 355m ship, the top of the upper level sticks out of the dome by 2'. The sides of the lower decks stick out but by a much smaller amount. The FP horizontal room now fits barely in the impulse engine space but the two diagonal conduits leave zero room for space behind the orange glow grills.

In both cases, all space at and to the aft of the vertical shaft is unusable by turbolifts and you'd have to fit all turbolift cars in front of the vertical shaft decks.

So as interesting as placing the engineroom as seen up where the impulse engine/neck sounds, it doesn't work and causes way more problems than it solves in it's current configuration.

Edit: Unless there is more useful data regarding set sizes I'm putting this to bed and won't revisit it unless something new comes up.
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 27 2013, 01:41 AM   #891
Mytran
Fleet Captain
 
Mytran's Avatar
 
Location: North Wales
Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Blssdwlf got there first, but yes - you need to measure from the corridor junctions to get a true idea of the width. TOS corridors measured a full 8' from wall to wall, but TMP, TNG & VOY sets have support buttresses and those pull-off panels intruding into the walkways, making them seem narrower. Voyager cut back and expanded the corridors to their fullest modern extent, almost going full circle to TOS!

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Yes - sort of. It fits well at 12' deck heights. Shorter deck heights can work but it does weird perspective things to the vertical shaft and the widths of the rail openings going down. The FP artist did a pretty good job on 12', IMO.
The more I inspect that floor painting, the more impressed I am. I wonder if it was done by the same famed artist that worked on Indiana Jones 3 (amongst many other films). It was still there in TWOK and still carried off the illusion.

Looking at it again, I was surprised to see that the lower rooms are actually rectangular, and smaller than the square "upper room" where Kirk originally enters in TMP. My estimate puts the lower rooms at between 18'x22' and 19'x23', not including the thickness of the outer bulkheads.

Sadly this width will still not fit in the dorsal section, even on a 1,164' Enterprise.

The trouble is that Probert's original design (along with the blue vertical stripe on the dorsal) would require much smaller sets than the ones we ended up with on screen. It is clear that while Probert was approaching the design of the refit from a more realistic real-world perspective, the actual set designers were focused on making everything seem BIG and CINEMATIC.

They are two completely different ships. In fact, it seems to me we have 3 versions of the TMP Enterprise:

1) The 1,000' Probert version, with a smaller engine room and better correlation with the exterior features. Some "squinting" is needed for scenes in the Cargo Deck and the various "plus sized" sets. The blue corridors are best ignored entirely.

2) The 1,164' movie version. The Cargo Deck fits fine, but the Engine Room is located further aft to accomodate blue corridors in the forward secondary hull, along with a dog-legged intermix tube.

3) The Roddenberry version from the novelisation. Engine Room is in the centre of the secondary hull (and a possible TNG-style intermix setup). Cargo Deck of a likely different design. Numerous private windowed compartments in the forward section of the secondary hull (many filled with copulating couples). Officer's lounge has FORWARD facing windows, possibly as in ST5?

Squeezing the vertical tube (as seen) into the dorsal might be possible with a bit of squinting, but what about the multitude of personnel walking left and right in the corridors - are they all going up stairs into the saucer undercut? The "impulse crystal" would basically have to be a hollow bowl to fit the Upper Engine Room beneath it. The whole setup eats into space that might logically be reserved for the glowing "impulse" machinery, and the 23' width of the room would still not fit. I must admit, I am still skeptical...
Mytran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 27 2013, 03:18 PM   #892
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

@Mytran - you are right and it is too bad the production folks went so sideways with Probert's design that it doesn't fit with what he intended.

Oh and Happy Thanksgiving to All!
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 27 2013, 03:57 PM   #893
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
So as interesting as placing the engineroom as seen up where the impulse engine/neck sounds, it doesn't work and causes way more problems than it solves in it's current configuration.

I'm unable to follow.
  • It would relocate the blue corridors "inside" the ship and the saucer where these make better sense
  • It would explain how Kirk and Scotty arrived so quickly at the transporter room
  • It would free us from the need to rationalize circular corridors in the engineering hull
  • It would not introduce an even longer corridor at the bow of the engineering hull
  • It would not require a rationalization why the TWOK energizer room was miraculously spared from Khan's slicing feast (shifting the warp engine room further to the stern will beg for explanation)
  • It would, last but not least, keep the warp drive engine room exactly where Mr. Probert intended it to be along with the special intermix shaft cover panels on the connecting dorsal pylon.
All it really takes is either some tolerance towards a few inches or feet of sets a little too wide and/or high (literally nothing compared to the Rec Deck issue) or a slightly bigger ship.

As a matter of fact, I failed to include the dark "fin" attached to the dorsal near the saucer undercut in my calculations, that should also add a few feet to the engine room's width.

IIRC, your 355 m overall length estimation resulted from the examination of the cargo and hangar deck's width. Did you include the outgoing bright corridor on the starboard side in your figures?

Once the size of the ship has already been boosted from 305 to 355 m to accomodate Mr. Probert's aforementioned matte painting, I'm confident - if considered absolutely necessary - another size increase will not nearly be that drastic but rather moderate.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 27 2013, 04:19 PM   #894
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
So as interesting as placing the engineroom as seen up where the impulse engine/neck sounds, it doesn't work and causes way more problems than it solves in it's current configuration.

I'm unable to follow.
  • It would relocate the blue corridors "inside" the ship and the saucer where these make better sense

That's not an issue as the blue corridors are straight corridors.



Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
  • It would explain how Kirk and Scotty arrived so quickly at the transporter room

Not an issue. Put the transporter room nearby on the deck below in the engineering hull.


Robert Comsol wrote: View Post

Not an issue since curved corridors were present on the TOS engineering hull.



Robert Comsol wrote: View Post

Not an issue with the engine room already moved back. It does fit (on a 355m hull like the blue corridors.) The blue and silver corridor doesn't fit on a 305m hull.


Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
  • It would not require a rationalization why the TWOK energizer room was miraculously spared from Khan's slicing feast (shifting the warp engine room further to the stern will beg for explanation)

Not really. Even if Khan shot directly at the engine room in the engineering hull on a 305m ship, there is 30' of machinery to blast through which at Khan's low power setting he obviously didn't penetrate far. On a 355m ship at least 36' of space to blast through.



Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
  • It would, last but not least, keep the warp drive engine room exactly where Mr. Probert intended it to be along with the special intermix shaft cover panels on the connecting dorsal pylon.
As pointed out before, that would only work if all the sets were ALTERED or created DIFFERENTLY than as shown on screen. What was made for the movie IS NOT compatible with what Mr. Probert designed (unfortunately.)

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
All it really takes is either some tolerance towards a few inches or feet of sets a little too wide and/or high (literally nothing compared to the Rec Deck issue) or a slightly bigger ship.
And that's the problem. If you want to build Mr. Probert's ship, I suggest you start your own thread

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Did you include the outgoing bright corridor on the starboard side in your figures?
Yes.
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 27 2013, 04:23 PM   #895
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Mytran wrote: View Post
You need to measure from the corridor junctions to get a true idea of the width.
But the problem remains that we'd still need the actual size figures of the original TMP set. Unless we don't have these, I see no alternative than to rely on the known body height of actors, put these at 90° and use them as a biological "rulers". This is how I arrived at a width of 132 cm for the corridor floor area revealed on the (apparently accurate) stage plan and from that derived the other size figures (some fans might want to believe that Bill Shatner is taller than he is but that should not influence our size estimates ).

Mytran wrote: View Post
The trouble is that Probert's original design (along with the blue vertical stripe on the dorsal) would require much smaller sets than the ones we ended up with on screen. It is clear that while Probert was approaching the design of the refit from a more realistic real-world perspective, the actual set designers were focused on making everything seem BIG and CINEMATIC.
Absolutely! Production designer Hal Michelson seemed to have a soft spot for oversized sets, it often looked like they were trying to hard to compete with the large UK sets from Star Wars.

Andrew Probert always got the reply "Nobody is going to measure it with a ruler." Yeah, sure (I already did back in 1980).

Mytran wrote: View Post
Squeezing the vertical tube (as seen) into the dorsal might be possible with a bit of squinting, but what about the multitude of personnel walking left and right in the corridors - are they all going up stairs into the saucer undercut?
Since the corridor ahead of the engine room is off center towards the starboard side there'd be inevitably stairs there. On the port side I would assume mostly turbo lift cabs (and according to my estimates there'd be space for these)

Mytran wrote: View Post
The "impulse crystal" would basically have to be a hollow bowl to fit the Upper Engine Room beneath it. The whole setup eats into space that might logically be reserved for the glowing "impulse" machinery, and the 23' width of the room would still not fit. I must admit, I am still skeptical...
But its explosion in TWOK made it look like a hollow bowl, didn't it? As for the glowing impulse engines I guess it wouldn't be that much of a problem, but apparently I should focus on making some visual presentation of these issues...and a new thread as recommended by blssdwlf.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 27 2013, 11:00 PM   #896
Mytran
Fleet Captain
 
Mytran's Avatar
 
Location: North Wales
Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

The width of the corridor at the junction can be estimated in this very shot - the man walking past is not too different from Shatner and his height is approximately 75% of the corridor width (the extremities of the struts), ie 8'. Whole numbers were used in TOS (and other set plans I've seen) as that made it easier for the carpenters and set builders, so I doubt we would be looking at 7'7" or 7'10" for example.

I've stated my belief that the Probert ship (as planned) is irreconcilable with the movie Enterprise. However, since scaling up the ship is always possible and something I never shy away from (as you know) I'm happy to give it a go!
Let's see, using the 1,000' vessel as our baseline:

The dorsal width on a 1,000' refit is 5.4m or 17'9" and to fit in the width of the lower Engine Room bays (including outer bulkheads) would require around 24' minimum. That would require a ship length of 1,355'.

If the airlocks were 6' diameter on the original, they'd now be 8'2" (with a 5' drop onto the gangway level with the shuttlebay, so steps would be needed).
Saucer decks (as suggested by the windows) would go from 9'6" to 12'10" and the secondary hull window spacing would go from 12' to 16'3".

This would solve the problem of the Engine Room sticking out of the undercut, since it could now nestle higher up.
The Rec Deck would at last fit into the undercut in its "official" location too.
I think my "central saucer engine room" idea would fit as well - we could have TWO engine rooms in the saucer!!!

* * * * * * *

I wonder how large that would make the pre-refit Enterprise?

Using the "official" length of 947' would scale up to 1,283'
The popular alternative of 1,080' would yield a 1,463' ship

However, if we match the bottom rims of the saucers (my preferred method) then we get a TOS Enterprise of 1,437' - coincidentally a very close visual match for Drexler's cutaway of 1,420', so at least we know what it would look like!

In summary - this new refit would be a BIG ship

Mytran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 30 2013, 10:34 PM   #897
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Doing some close-up studies of the TMP Enterprise I came across a screencap which I believe should make it abundantly clear that there are plants behind these 6 large bottom windows at the bottom: http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a.../tmphd0723.jpg

I'm not aware of a better shot, but this one should satisfy the Thermians.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 30 2013, 10:39 PM   #898
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Dunno - looks like a shield and a giant wrench head on a stand.
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4 2013, 03:07 PM   #899
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Mytran wrote: View Post
Next, he walks into a room. From our perspective the area that Kirk enters into is actually facing a wall above the foyer end of the set below:



The panel with the "e" on it is the foyer wall - the lift to the side is a dead giveaway. Taking the set literally, Kirk must have entered through a door situated above the horizontal intermix tube, at the aft end of Upper Engineering. ...

However, we do get to see the aft wall of the upper level - that green octogon thing from the cancelled Star Trek Phase 2 series. Leaving the "trouble shot" aside for now, the octogan would seem to be the door from which Kirk originally entered the room - and there is a large black area in the octogon which might be a darkened entranceway. What do people think about that?
Having seen some Phase II pictures of the original engine room like this one (mirrored or not?) it looks like there actually is a door right next to the octogon wall panel, so there wouldn't be the need to rationalize an entranceway in the octogon.

You can also glimpse that door just a few frames ahead of this screencap.

Thus, the blue corridor used by Kirk in TMP to get to the upper level of the engine room would actually extend to the stern (starboard side) and not to the bow (and outside the ship).

Too bad that takes only care of the upper level's blue corridor.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4 2013, 11:48 PM   #900
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post

Having seen some Phase II pictures of the original engine room like this one (mirrored or not?) it looks like there actually is a door right next to the octogon wall panel, so there wouldn't be the need to rationalize an entranceway in the octogon.
That's a good find but not exact. Rationalizing an in-universe interior with out-of-universe partial set elements that were moved around is a bad thing, IMHO. (The phase 2 octagon is one level down and there are 2 panels separating it from the door on the right.)

However, that did encourage a re-examination of the actual visuals and we do see what appears to be a door/opening to the right, one panel away from the octagon that is visible in TMP behind Kirk.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Thus, the blue corridor used by Kirk in TMP to get to the upper level of the engine room would actually extend to the stern (starboard side) and not to the bow (and outside the ship).
I'd put it on the stern port side after rotating 180 around the engine room.

Now, it fits fine on the stern on my setup with the horizontal conduit having evenly spaced segments.

But, if I use the "short" segments then the corridor gets crowded with the diagonal segments (not to mention it won't reach the warp pylons without another horizontal run.)

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Too bad that takes only care of the upper level's blue corridor.
Yep. Still got the main level one.

The top blue corridor could go either way, but the stern version can work for me.
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
decks, interior, movies, tos

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:07 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.