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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old November 27 2013, 03:25 AM   #241
Guy Gardener
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Re: Lt. Kim

I'm pretty sure it's almost 30, but only Garret knows for sure.
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Last edited by Guy Gardener; November 27 2013 at 05:12 AM.
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Old November 27 2013, 03:49 AM   #242
Use of Time
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Re: Lt. Kim

I'm going to blame Janeway for the Harry situation. I'm also going to go with Guy here and go with the premise that Harry is the senior Operations officer on Voyager and a senior staff department head. What I don't understand is why that all of a sudden became an entry level position. A guy comes from the academy green as grass and is placed as the senior officer in his field. Just who the hell is he supposed to go to when he has a question? I'm not 100% sure what Star Trek defines Operations as. In TNG, Data almost seemed liked the senior science officer. (basically did Spockish type work) That is pretty much how Harry operated until Seven showed up. Seems like more than just distributing assets and acting as a quartermaster. The dude should have been a full LT by the time they hit Earth. Full Stop.
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Old November 27 2013, 04:06 AM   #243
exodus
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Re: Lt. Kim

Folks here view Harry for all 7 seasons as a do nothing character, yet think he deserves a promotion. I don't get it, isn't that a contradiction?
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Old November 27 2013, 04:10 AM   #244
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Re: Lt. Kim

Why not? All you have to do in the military the first couple of years is not get a DUI in your first 18 months and you are good to go. He was a frikkin Ensign. Nobody is petitioning him for a Captaincy. Is J.G. all that much to ask? Jesus, Reg made full Commander for Christ sake.
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Old November 27 2013, 04:32 AM   #245
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Re: Lt. Kim

Use of Time wrote: View Post
Why not? All you have to do in the military the first couple of years is not get a DUI in your first 18 months and you are good to go. He was a frikkin Ensign. Nobody is petitioning him for a Captaincy. Is J.G. all that much to ask? Jesus, Reg made full Commander for Christ sake.
Barclay is a way better Engineer than Harry.
Within the first month, Harry plotted to steal alien technology after he was told not to. Within in the next few months he openly defied Tuvok, a commanding officer. Harry wasn't discipline enough for a promotion. Look at how Harry acted with Tom? Harry was a follower, not a leader. Lt requires you know how to think for yourself and respect the chain of command, even if you don't like the orders.
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Old November 27 2013, 04:37 AM   #246
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Re: Lt. Kim

exodus wrote: View Post
Use of Time wrote: View Post
Why not? All you have to do in the military the first couple of years is not get a DUI in your first 18 months and you are good to go. He was a frikkin Ensign. Nobody is petitioning him for a Captaincy. Is J.G. all that much to ask? Jesus, Reg made full Commander for Christ sake.
Barclay is a way better Engineer than Harry.
Within the first month, Harry plotted to steal alien technology after he was told not to. Within in the next few months he openly defied Tuvok, a commanding officer. Harry wasn't discipline enough for a promotion. Look at how Harry acted with Tom? Harry was a follower, not a leader. Lt requires you know how to think for yourself and respect the chain of command, even if you don't like the orders.
We could make a laundry list of things every major character in the history of Star Trek did that could technically bar them from promotion. Kim knew his job and served well enough to get an extra pip. Through all of the things you mentioned he still kept his job. Why? Because he was woefully inept? I don't think so. Because they needed him? Most likely. My life experience tells me that your last sentence isn't all that true.
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Old November 27 2013, 04:45 AM   #247
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Re: Lt. Kim

Use of Time wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Use of Time wrote: View Post
Why not? All you have to do in the military the first couple of years is not get a DUI in your first 18 months and you are good to go. He was a frikkin Ensign. Nobody is petitioning him for a Captaincy. Is J.G. all that much to ask? Jesus, Reg made full Commander for Christ sake.
Barclay is a way better Engineer than Harry.
Within the first month, Harry plotted to steal alien technology after he was told not to. Within in the next few months he openly defied Tuvok, a commanding officer. Harry wasn't discipline enough for a promotion. Look at how Harry acted with Tom? Harry was a follower, not a leader. Lt requires you know how to think for yourself and respect the chain of command, even if you don't like the orders.
We could make a laundry list of things every major character in the history of Star Trek did that could technically bar them from promotion. Kim knew his job and served well enough to get an extra pip. Through all of the things you mentioned he still kept his job. Why? Because he was woefully inept? I don't think so. Because they needed him? Most likely. My life experience tells me that your last sentence isn't all that true.
Its Star Trek, none of it is true.
I disagree, leaving the hologram in charge over Harry tells me they didn't find Harry capable enough yet for promotion.
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Old November 27 2013, 04:50 AM   #248
Use of Time
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Re: Lt. Kim

exodus wrote: View Post
Use of Time wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Barclay is a way better Engineer than Harry.
Within the first month, Harry plotted to steal alien technology after he was told not to. Within in the next few months he openly defied Tuvok, a commanding officer. Harry wasn't discipline enough for a promotion. Look at how Harry acted with Tom? Harry was a follower, not a leader. Lt requires you know how to think for yourself and respect the chain of command, even if you don't like the orders.
We could make a laundry list of things every major character in the history of Star Trek did that could technically bar them from promotion. Kim knew his job and served well enough to get an extra pip. Through all of the things you mentioned he still kept his job. Why? Because he was woefully inept? I don't think so. Because they needed him? Most likely. My life experience tells me that your last sentence isn't all that true.
Its Star Trek, none of it is true.
I disagree, leaving the hologram in charge over Harry tells me they didn't find Harry capable enough yet for promotion.
ah, the classic "it's just a T.V. show" exit.

What does being left in command of a starship have to do with being promoted within your field?
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Old November 27 2013, 05:21 AM   #249
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Re: Lt. Kim

Use of Time wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Use of Time wrote: View Post

We could make a laundry list of things every major character in the history of Star Trek did that could technically bar them from promotion. Kim knew his job and served well enough to get an extra pip. Through all of the things you mentioned he still kept his job. Why? Because he was woefully inept? I don't think so. Because they needed him? Most likely. My life experience tells me that your last sentence isn't all that true.
Its Star Trek, none of it is true.
I disagree, leaving the hologram in charge over Harry tells me they didn't find Harry capable enough yet for promotion.
ah, the classic "it's just a T.V. show" exit.

What does being left in command of a starship have to do with being promoted within your field?
I've already gone over it.
Sorry you have issue with me finding Trek just a TV show.
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Old November 27 2013, 05:30 AM   #250
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Re: Lt. Kim

Technical proficiency doesn't = Rank.

Actually the more rank you have the less labour (Engineering in this case)you have to do.

Rank is about human resources management.

Oh, here's a thought about the size of Operations, maybe it is just one guy?

He's the department head, and his entire department is just him.

(Getting Chakotay was a two week mission. It's conceivable that all missions for Intrepid Class vessels will be 2 weekish missions, and inbetween those missions they're just parked at Starbases, where they don't need any crew at all.)

Half of what Operations is, is asking all the other departments if they have their shit together, is anything broken, or can you do something for the bridge/captain please? That's why he has the damage reports, the Operations Officer is monitoring everyone else. All the above legwork/elbow grease is, is the readouts vs. a couple do-it buttons on his LCARS. Remember the Doctor in Message in a Bottle when...

EMH2 Doctor, something just went offline.
EMH: Specifically?
EMH2: The secondary girodyne relays and the propulsion field intermatrix have depolarised.
EMH: In English!
EMH2 I'm just reading what it says here.
Kim's job is reading a teleprompter.
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Old November 27 2013, 05:41 AM   #251
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Re: Lt. Kim

I agree with Seven being a surrogate daughter for Janeway, as was Kes.
I can see how Kim filled that same role, as a son, but I don't feel the bond was as strong with her girls. Harry had a family of his own, even if they were far away, he was just there until he got home. Seven and Kes weren't ever going to be reunited with their families, so Voyager was the only home they had.
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Old November 27 2013, 05:47 AM   #252
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Re: Lt. Kim

borgboy wrote: View Post
I agree with Seven being a surrogate daughter for Janeway, as was Kes.
I can see how Kim filled that same role, as a son, but I don't feel the bond was as strong with her girls. Harry had a family of his own, even if they were far away, he was just there until he got home. Seven and Kes weren't ever going to be reunited with their families, so Voyager was the only home they had.
I agree.
That and Seven needed more attention cause she had special needs. She didn't have the proper social skills Kes & Harry already had.
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Old November 27 2013, 06:05 AM   #253
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Re: Lt. Kim

Oh yes. Seven was definitely the one who needed Janeway the most, at least for their first few years together.
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Old November 27 2013, 06:20 AM   #254
Melakon
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Re: Lt. Kim

Might have been interesting if they had done a story where one of the lower deck officers-- Joe Carey for example, had the writers realized he was still alive-- started bucking for Harry's job, and proved better at it in a crisis of the week situation. Closed door meetings with Janeway and Chakotay on whether to make Carey the Ops Officer, Tuvok perhaps as Kim's defender, and Harry and Garrett get something to do other than opening hailing frequencies.
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Old November 27 2013, 06:23 AM   #255
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Re: Lt. Kim

When I'm less tired I will covert you all to J/7.. as the fandom says, my mother ever looked at me like Janeway looks at 7
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