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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old November 25 2013, 05:53 AM   #166
borgboy
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Re: Lt. Kim

They still would've had an African American and Latina actor. I absolutely believe in diversity, but I don't know that VOY needed Kim. I agree Kes wasn't always used to her best, but I don't think she could've been any worse than the boring uselessness of Harry. At least over her three years Kes got some real stand out moments, and I loved just seeing her in small supporting role even when the focus wasn't on her. I'm clearly biased toward Kes, but at least I admit it
I'd been ok with getting rid of Neelix instead of Kes or Harry if that helps.
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Old November 25 2013, 05:54 AM   #167
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Re: Lt. Kim

Assimilate Kes in Scorpion.

Now every should'a been a Jeri Ryan story could'a been a Jennifer Lien story.

Everyone is happy.
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Old November 25 2013, 06:08 AM   #168
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Re: Lt. Kim

borgboy wrote: View Post
They still would've had an African American and Latina actor. I absolutely believe in diversity, but I don't know that VOY needed Kim. I agree Kes wasn't always used to her best, but I don't think she could've been any worse than the boring uselessness of Harry. At least over her three years Kes got some real stand out moments, and I loved just seeing her in small supporting role even when the focus wasn't on her. I'm clearly biased toward Kes, but at least I admit it
I'd been ok with getting rid of Neelix instead of Kes or Harry if that helps.
If "Before & After" was going to be her future, then she was going to be just as boring. Sorry.
Plus if Kes stayed, Janeway & B'lenna were predicted to die.
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Old November 25 2013, 06:19 AM   #169
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Re: Lt. Kim

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Assimilate Kes in Scorpion.

Now every should'a been a Jeri Ryan story could'a been a Jennifer Lien story.

Everyone is happy.
So instead of 7 the freed Borg you have Kes the freed Borg?

That might have been interesting if she had the arrogance of Fury Kes and the charisma of Warlord Kes and Naomi was scared to death of her. A total reboot with sweet Kes showing up during implant breakdown scenarios.
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Old November 25 2013, 06:21 AM   #170
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Re: Lt. Kim

Well, obviously the future of The Year of Hell was going to be avoided, and I didn't really expect Kes's life would've worked out just like Before & After. Tom may have gotten together with B'lanna anyways, and I did like them as a couple.
Kes could've been the focus of the Doctor's affections instead of Seven, or Kes could've stayed single except for the random boyfriend of the week that people on Star Trek get.
It's all subjective though, as I never found Kes boring. Her stories were sometimes not as good as others, but that's true for everyone.
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Old November 25 2013, 06:28 AM   #171
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Re: Lt. Kim

The Doctor shouldn't have been allowed to date fleshies.

What would your boss say if she caught you frakking the office photocopier?
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Old November 25 2013, 06:30 AM   #172
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Re: Lt. Kim

No one cares what people do with vacuums in the privacy of their own homes. Or so I've heard.
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Old November 25 2013, 06:35 AM   #173
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Re: Lt. Kim

I don't agree. The Doctor was sentient, so any relationship between sentient consenting adults is ok with him, at least in theory. It's a slippery slope as to at what point a hologram is considered a person. I thought that whole topic was interesting in Voyager.
By the later seasons the Doctor did have feelings for Seven, so he was capable of desire at least. Kes always saw the Doctor as a person, so that aspect wouldn't be an issue, although it's questionable if her feelings for him would or could have become romantic. I'd think at least initally he'd have been stuck in the friend zone, as he was with Seven, but that could've been interesting too.
I liked Seven with the Doctor a heck of a lot better than Chakotay anyways, that was just awkward and bad. A real taint on the ending.
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Old November 25 2013, 06:38 AM   #174
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Re: Lt. Kim

But what if he DID look like a toaster? OR a Dalek? Or a piece of medical equipment that talked and had multiple metal grabby hands? And was sentient and interested in humanity?

The creators of Data and the EMH could have made them look like anything, and maybe the sentience question would have come up anyway but it might not have found as many backers.
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Old November 25 2013, 06:45 AM   #175
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Re: Lt. Kim

I'd take the Doctor as a hologram as a partner over Neelix anyday. Not that I'm particularly attracted to him, although I love his character, but he's way more attractive than Neelix. The character, not the actor I mean, just to be clear.
Apparently Ocampans, or at least Kes, have pretty different tastes, although I think Kes was emotionally pure and enlightened to see beyond the physical.
I do find Date kind of attractive. I may be oversharing.
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Old November 25 2013, 06:50 AM   #176
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Re: Lt. Kim

Exocomps?

The Doctor looked like a room.

His program was stored on the buffer inside the walls.

His eyes, and other sense were sensors in the walls of sick bay.

He is not a holographic lifeform.

He is software.

His code is not stored inside the hologram.

The hologram is a muppet to the code on a buffer no different from any other device pushed by code.

Straight out of the box the Doctor was not sentient by Federation standards.

Straight out of the box the Doctor was sentient by Kes' standards.

Kes has unrealistic and wrong standards.

Kes would have blended in seamlessly with Smurf Village.

The Federation wanted a slave race.

They know how to make sentient AI, and they don't want to make sentient AI, because they want a slave race.

All that aside, accidents do happen.

Accidentally he may have become sentient at some point, but I am unwilling to commit to any date.
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Old November 25 2013, 06:50 AM   #177
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Re: Lt. Kim

borgboy wrote: View Post
I'd take the Doctor as a hologram as a partner over Neelix anyday. Not that I'm particularly attracted to him, although I love his character, but he's way more attractive than Neelix. The character, not the actor I mean, just to be clear.
Apparently Ocampans, or at least Kes, have pretty different tastes, although I think Kes was emotionally pure and enlightened to see beyond the physical.
I do find Date kind of attractive. I may be oversharing.

But he's kind of hard work. He would always be nagging you to improve yourself. I kind of see Neelix as this lovely couch potato, always up for something interesting but not hard to keep up with. I don't find Neelix unattractive, some humans on Star Trek are a lot less cute IMO. I'd take a Talaxian over a Klingon any day.

You can have Data.
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Old November 25 2013, 06:55 AM   #178
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Re: Lt. Kim

borgboy wrote: View Post
I don't agree. The Doctor was sentient, so any relationship between sentient consenting adults is ok with him, at least in theory. It's a slippery slope as to at what point a hologram is considered a person. I thought that whole topic was interesting in Voyager.
By the later seasons the Doctor did have feelings for Seven, so he was capable of desire at least. Kes always saw the Doctor as a person, so that aspect wouldn't be an issue, although it's questionable if her feelings for him would or could have become romantic. I'd think at least initally he'd have been stuck in the friend zone, as he was with Seven, but that could've been interesting too.
I liked Seven with the Doctor a heck of a lot better than Chakotay anyways, that was just awkward and bad. A real taint on the ending.
When Kes was on board, The Doc was not sentient.
He was still a slave to his programming, he didn't have choice over much of what he did yet.
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Old November 25 2013, 06:57 AM   #179
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Re: Lt. Kim

Thanks I'll keep him
You have really lovely descriptions of Neelix, I can see how that would be appealing. I do think Ethan Phillips is cute in a quirky kind of way. He's no Data though. I also have a mad crush on Julian Bashir.
The Doctor did always seem to have a very high opinion of Kes though, more than anyone else I think. I'm not sure at what point the Doctor became sentient. Even if he wasn't sentient when Kes left, if she'd stuck around for the whole series she'd have been there when he did pass that invisble line into sentience. Presuming he ever was. I think he was by the end, and not at the beginning. I'm uncertain of when it happened in those middle seven years.
I can see the appeal of a Klingon as far as fantasy goes, but I know that would never work. Who wants to get a broken bone every time you get sexual, and then there's all the noise and aggression.
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Old November 25 2013, 07:01 AM   #180
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Re: Lt. Kim

borgboy wrote: View Post
I'd take the Doctor as a hologram as a partner over Neelix anyday. Not that I'm particularly attracted to him, although I love his character, but he's way more attractive than Neelix. The character, not the actor I mean, just to be clear.
Apparently Ocampans, or at least Kes, have pretty different tastes, although I think Kes was emotionally pure and enlightened to see beyond the physical.
I do find Date kind of attractive. I may be oversharing.
I think if Trek were real, you'd be sharing a sofa with Barclay, talking to Troi about choosing to be in a relationship with a video game over a flesh & blood person.
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