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Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old November 23 2013, 03:05 PM   #106
Warped9
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

borgboy wrote: View Post
I am still bitter about the blu rays being just the theatrical versions and not the superior director's cuts.
I'm not bitter, but it would be nice to see. It'll probably happen eventually.
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Old November 24 2013, 07:17 AM   #107
Lance
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

GalaxyX wrote: View Post
Lance wrote: View Post
^ As I understand it, it's more a case of the Blu Ray can't have both, because the assets used for certain brand new special effects sequences in the DE were all done digitally, and those assets no longer exist so they'd have to spend money redoing them with new technology to make them match up to an HD standard. As opposed to the theatical cut, where they just need to run the original negative through a machine to scan it at a higher res. The simple fact is that no 'original negative' of the DE exists because it was an entirely digital production made specifically for the DVD era.

I assume the 'Special Longer Version' could be done in HD however, because it was sourced from original assets that probably still exist in the vaults. It'd just be a case of tracking down the relevant negatives, scanning everything and then splicing it together to match the previous SLV.
So as usual, it sounds like Paramount are just being a bunch of cheap penny pinching cocks.

I'm glad CBS is doing all the remasterings now. Paramounts needs to jump in a lake.
A version of the Director's Edition would be achievable, but I don't think it necessarily be easy to achieve. It certainly wouldn't be cheap.

It's a shame the DE never got the theatrical release that was rumored for it at the time. Because if it had, they'd have had to strike up a film negative to work from, and that would have made a Blu Ray release a whole lot easier now.

borgboy wrote: View Post
I am still bitter about the blu rays being just the theatrical versions and not the superior director's cuts.
I dispute the contention that the Director's Cut of anything is 'superior'. Certainly in the case of TWOK there's nothing IMO in the so-called 'Director's Edition' which puts it above the theatrical cut. Quite the reverse, I think the additions are entirely superfluous. I'm glad the theatrical cut is the only one on Blu Ray.
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Old November 24 2013, 11:40 AM   #108
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

My primary frustration with the the DE is that it's a half-measure, and not the much tighter/shorter cut Wise originally intended and indeed discussed in 1980. The fan wanky additions and disregard for the original VFX artists' work and intent only makes it worse.
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Old November 24 2013, 12:00 PM   #109
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

Maurice wrote: View Post
My primary frustration with the the DE is that it's a half-measure, and not the much tighter/shorter cut Wise originally intended and indeed discussed in 1980. The fan wanky additions and disregard for the original VFX artists' work and intent only makes it worse.
You always say this and it ends up being argued back-and-forth so that I've stopped caring. It's enough for me the DE is a so much more enjoyable experience than any other version I've seen before. No, it's not perfect, but that's mostly because what needs to be fixed can't be because we can't go back in time and get a needed rewrite to add more character drama.

Getting the DE on Blu-Ray should be a non-issue for you because you hate the thing anyway.
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Old November 24 2013, 12:12 PM   #110
Robert Comsol
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

There'd be an easy solution available in the Blu-ray format to make almost everybody happy (i.e. seamless branching).

Theoretically you could have all different versions on one Blu-ray disc and simply choose the version of your preference in the main menu.

The lower resolution of the VFX in the DE must not necessarily be an issue, once we consider we have plenty of out-of-perfect-focus scenes in the current HD theatrical version of TMP, too, which at times look like standard definition.

Bob
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Old November 24 2013, 12:19 PM   #111
LOKAI of CHERON
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

Lance wrote: View Post
I dispute the contention that the Director's Cut of anything is 'superior'. Certainly in the case of TWOK there's nothing IMO in the so-called 'Director's Edition' which puts it above the theatrical cut. Quite the reverse, I think the additions are entirely superfluous. I'm glad the theatrical cut is the only one on Blu Ray.
Agreed.

All the Trek DC's are inferior to the theatrical releases, particularly TMP and TWOK.

In the age of the home video re-release, there seems to be a prevailing "oh, it's longer, it must be better" attitude. It's almost like collectors feel they're getting shortchanged in some way if they don't own every second of available footage. Pacing for the sake of the movie's best artistic intent is forgotten.

This isn't always the case of course, the extended version of The Abyss is significantly superior for instance. But I've found in general, extended versions at best add a few minutes of fluff, but more often than not, needlessly sour the final product to varying degrees.
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Old November 24 2013, 02:15 PM   #112
Lance
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

Warped9 wrote: View Post
It's enough for me the DE is a so much more enjoyable experience than any other version I've seen before.
While I do respect your opinion (and even understand it, I know how much TMP in particular does mean to you ), it is an entirely subjective stance. There are always going to be other people out there who feel that the DE has short-changed 'their' favorite moment or scene, which means it clearly isn't a more enjoyable experience for them. You can please some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time.

Myself, I take a clear middle road in these discussions, avoiding liking or disliking any particular version of TMP over another. In my view, there is nothing in the DE of The Motion Picture which is inherently superior or inferior to the theatrical edition..... it's simply a different presentation of what is at brass tacks the same basic product from 1979. The DE is an alternative but *not* a replacement, if you will.

LOKAI of CHERON wrote: View Post
Lance wrote: View Post
I dispute the contention that the Director's Cut of anything is 'superior'. Certainly in the case of TWOK there's nothing IMO in the so-called 'Director's Edition' which puts it above the theatrical cut. Quite the reverse, I think the additions are entirely superfluous. I'm glad the theatrical cut is the only one on Blu Ray.
Agreed.

All the Trek DC's are inferior to the theatrical releases, particularly TMP and TWOK.

In the age of the home video re-release, there seems to be a prevailing "oh, it's longer, it must be better" attitude. It's almost like collectors feel they're getting shortchanged in some way if they don't own every second of available footage. Pacing for the sake of the movie's best artistic intent is forgotten.

This isn't always the case of course, the extended version of The Abyss is significantly superior for instance. But I've found in general, extended versions at best add a few minutes of fluff, but more often than not, needlessly sour the final product to varying degrees.
As I say, it's entertaining to see alternative takes on things. What bugs me is when discussions on the internet go down the road of "Oh, this version of the movie is better than that version", when to my mind the differences are often.... negligable.

Certainly I feel the theatrical cut of any movie should always be the canon text. Whatever misgivings a director might have had about it, the mentality of going 'back in time' (as Bob Wise himself put it in 2002) is unhelpful, in that one's opinions change over time. The Bob Wise who worked on the DE is a different Bob Wise to the man who directed it, no doubt he came at it with ideas that his 1970s self may not have presented (putting aside additions made to the DE by people other than Wise himself). Another appropriate (if somewhat obvious) example: the George Lucas who recut the Star Wars trilogy in the mid-1990s was not the same man who birthed them in the 1970s. Many of his decisions overstepped the mark from being restorations of an original 'vision', to being something he intended to replace the originals with.

That's the mentality which disturbs me the most. This gut reaction people have to instantly accept the additions to the DE as being somehow a more 'pure' version of the movie, when to my mind they're the exact opposite of that.
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Old November 24 2013, 07:33 PM   #113
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

Lance wrote: View Post
A version of the Director's Edition would be achievable, but I don't think it necessarily be easy to achieve. It certainly wouldn't be cheap.
Actually it would be pretty cheap. The CGI assets still exist. They just have to assemble a team for a while to re-do them.
Most of the assets are in the hands of the artists that did them. They took the files home when Foundation closed its doors. It's been well known that Darren Dochterman is ready, willing, and able to do the DE in 1080p for years now. He's talked about it repeatedly in his blog circa 2009 when the theatrical Blu-ray's were released.

Lance wrote: View Post
It's a shame the DE never got the theatrical release that was rumored for it at the time. Because if it had, they'd have had to strike up a film negative to work from, and that would have made a Blu Ray release a whole lot easier now.
According to Darren Dochterman, there is a newer DE cut of the film with color correction changes made, etc. It's presumed to just be sitting in a vault somewhere.

It quite frankly comes down the fact that Paramount doesn't give a damn about the Trek back catalogue it has. Heck, it barely cares about the "cool kids" Abrams versions on home video.
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Old November 24 2013, 09:21 PM   #114
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

Warped9 wrote: View Post
Maurice wrote: View Post
My primary frustration with the the DE is that it's a half-measure, and not the much tighter/shorter cut Wise originally intended and indeed discussed in 1980. The fan wanky additions and disregard for the original VFX artists' work and intent only makes it worse.
You always say this and it ends up being argued back-and-forth so that I've stopped caring. It's enough for me the DE is a so much more enjoyable experience than any other version I've seen before. No, it's not perfect, but that's mostly because what needs to be fixed can't be because we can't go back in time and get a needed rewrite to add more character drama.

Getting the DE on Blu-Ray should be a non-issue for you because you hate the thing anyway.
I could point out a lot of things "you always say" and be just as dismissive of your opinions. Sauce, Mr. Gander?
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Old November 24 2013, 10:32 PM   #115
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

Maurice wrote: View Post
Warped9 wrote: View Post
Maurice wrote: View Post
My primary frustration with the the DE is that it's a half-measure, and not the much tighter/shorter cut Wise originally intended and indeed discussed in 1980. The fan wanky additions and disregard for the original VFX artists' work and intent only makes it worse.
You always say this and it ends up being argued back-and-forth so that I've stopped caring. It's enough for me the DE is a so much more enjoyable experience than any other version I've seen before. No, it's not perfect, but that's mostly because what needs to be fixed can't be because we can't go back in time and get a needed rewrite to add more character drama.

Getting the DE on Blu-Ray should be a non-issue for you because you hate the thing anyway.
I could point out a lot of things "you always say" and be just as dismissive of your opinions. Sauce, Mr. Gander?
I remember a theatrical version with some truly horrible unfinished visual and audio f/x as well as far too long visual sequences, most particularly the Vger fly-over. The DE got rid of most of what I disliked and fixed many audio issues I had. It also added some character bits back in which was all that could be done since it was impossible to go back in time and shoot a rewritten script for more character dynamic and drama.

Are they the choices Robert Wise would have made back in '79 given enough time? Maybe not, but then he couldn't go back in time and redo it or finish it off. His own perceptions as well as those that worked on the new cut were influenced by more than twenty years of what had come along since TMP first bowed. Creative decisions made today will be different than more than twenty years prior simply because you have an additional two decades of influence and experience colouring one's creative outlook.

I can't help but compare the TMP DE with TOS-R. I think the TMP DE came far, far closer to feeling like what we could have gotten originally given sufficient time to edit the film as Robert Wise intended. I cannot say that TOS-R looks or feels anything like what could have been done under the best of circumstances when TOS was in production. None of the new sequences look like what 1960's state-of-the-art feature film f/x could have done back in the day. Rather we have contemporary middle-of-the-road cgi f/x that (in my opinion) clash horribly with the remaining live action footage.

Of course, I voted with my dollar and after sampling TOS-R I simply choose not to reward CBS by buying it. In like manner you don't like the TMP DE then you simply don't have to buy it whether on DVD or if it ever makes it to Blu-Ray. Simple.

Yes, I have certainly bitched and moaned about a lot of things I don't like in Trek, to the point I was even getting tired of repeating myself. I'm never going to convince anyone of anything particularly on the internet. I've learned since that when I see praise for something I have little to no regard for I mostly (usually) roll my eyes and move on to something more interesting. And when I feel I need to make a remark I try to couch it in terms that (while expressing my disagreement and displeasure) will not likely start an argument.
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Old November 24 2013, 11:49 PM   #116
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

To set the record straight, I don't "hate" the DE. There are edits in it I like, but overall I find it a middling mediocrity (there's a Dr. Smith phrase if ever there was one).
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Old November 25 2013, 01:32 AM   #117
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

Maurice wrote: View Post
To set the record straight, I don't "hate" the DE. There are edits in it I like, but overall I find it a middling mediocrity (there's a Dr. Smith phrase if ever there was one).
Fair enough.
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Old November 25 2013, 06:41 PM   #118
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
There'd be an easy solution available in the Blu-ray format to make almost everybody happy (i.e. seamless branching).

Theoretically you could have all different versions on one Blu-ray disc and simply choose the version of your preference in the main menu.

The lower resolution of the VFX in the DE must not necessarily be an issue, once we consider we have plenty of out-of-perfect-focus scenes in the current HD theatrical version of TMP, too, which at times look like standard definition.

Bob
The solution of seamless branching is too feasible and too logical and too justified to get anybody's attention---except it's just easier to argue about what cut is better. Seamless branching is a winner for all camps but a lot of folks only want their camp to win.
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Old November 25 2013, 08:07 PM   #119
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

It seems to me that if there is only one version "out there" in a particular format it should be the original theatrical version. That's the one that established the baseline, good or bad, for everything that came after. Yes TMP had difficulties in its production, and maybe with more time... But that's part of its history. We have seen with many other movies that the more time passes the more interest becomes historical and the more value placed on the original.
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Old November 25 2013, 08:44 PM   #120
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

Grant wrote: View Post
The solution of seamless branching is too feasible and too logical and too justified to get anybody's attention---except it's just easier to argue about what cut is better. Seamless branching is a winner for all camps but a lot of folks only want their camp to win.
Grant, for me, it genuinely isn't a case of "wanting my camp to win". I prefer the theatrical, and simply offer my opinion on what I view as an opinion based Star Trek message board. Nothing more, nothing less.

Reference a seamless branching disc, you're absolutely right. In fact, as a collector, I'd love to have all three versions of the film in that format.

The poster boy for this is the superlative BD release of Close Encounters Of The Third Kind, which contains the theatrical, special edition and Director's cut via SB.
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