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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Doctor Who

Doctor Who "Bigger on the inside..."

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Old November 24 2013, 01:14 PM   #31
The Scrooge Doctor
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Re: Renumber The Doctors?

More to the point, what matters is what we see on screen. What we see on screen in "The Day of the Doctor" strongly says Hurt is The Ninth Doctor and so on, as seen from the most current incarnation of The Doctor.
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Old November 24 2013, 01:25 PM   #32
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Re: Renumber The Doctors?

They are perfectly numbered in base-11 with the extra between 8 and 9 instead of after 9.

1 - Hartnell
2 - Troughton
3 - Pertwee
4 - Baker
5 - Davison
6 - Baker
7 - McCoy
8 - McGann
Ɛ - Hurt
9 - Eccleston
10 - Tennant
11 - Smith
12 - Capaldi

I can't wait to see the 1Ɛth Doctor.
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Old November 24 2013, 02:26 PM   #33
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Re: Renumber The Doctors?

My view? The show had a 'get-out clause' in the sense of him being some kind of 'Doctor No More', but I see no reason (given on screen) why Hurt is not now officially the Ninth Doctor. Certainly the under-riding thematic arc of 'Day of the Doctor' is of the Tennant and Smith incarnations learning to finally 'accept' this part of who they are, after centuries of (implied) ignoring him.

Even more crucially, this is actually *confirmed* on screen when, in the climactic battle, the Capaldi incarnation is explicitly refered to as the thirteenth one. No ifs, no buts. Go back and watch it again.

Frankly I don't see that there's any ambiguity in it. Steven Moffat rewrote everything we thought we knew about the new series Doctors, so basically we do now have thirteen Doctors. Eccleston is 'Ten', Tennant is 'Eleven' and Smithy is 'Twelve'. People might find that hard to accept. But it's true.
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Old November 24 2013, 02:34 PM   #34
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Re: Renumber The Doctors?

Lance wrote: View Post

Even more crucially, this is actually *confirmed* on screen when, in the climactic battle, the Capaldi incarnation is explicitly refered to as the thirteenth one. No ifs, no buts. Go back and watch it again.
No he's not. Go back and watch it again. The Time Lord says that there are 13 of them, he doesn't say anything about numeration or about the 12th Doctor.

But anyway, the point is moot. As has been said, the showrunner decides how these Doctors are supposed to be referred to, and whatever is decided is fine with me.
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Old November 24 2013, 02:39 PM   #35
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Re: Renumber The Doctors?

YellowSubmarine wrote: View Post
They are perfectly numbered in base-11 with the extra between 8 and 9 instead of after 9.

1 - Hartnell
2 - Troughton
3 - Pertwee
4 - Baker
5 - Davison
6 - Baker
7 - McCoy
8 - McGann
Ɛ - Hurt
9 - Eccleston
10 - Tennant
11 - Smith
12 - Capaldi

I can't wait to see the 1Ɛth Doctor.
Nope, in base 11, that would be:

1 - Hartnell
2 - Troughton
3 - Pertwee
4 - Baker
5 - Davison
6 - Baker
7 - McCoy
8 - McGann
9 - Hurt
a - Eccleston
10 - Tennant
11 - Smith
12 - Capaldi

So Eccleston is the "a" Doctor.
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Old November 24 2013, 02:41 PM   #36
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Re: Renumber The Doctors?

The Mirrorball Man wrote: View Post
No he's not. Go back and watch it again. The Time Lord says that there are 13 of them, he doesn't say anything about numeration or about the 12th Doctor.
I agree, the line has potential ambiguities, but myself I think it states a plain case. Thirteen Doctors = thirteen Doctors, and the line is said when Capaldi makes his entrance.

But anyway, the point is moot. As has been said, the showrunner decides how these Doctors are supposed to be referred to, and whatever is decided is fine with me.
Totally agreed. If there are now 13 official Doctors, and like I say that seems to be the thematic thrust of the story, and if it is the intention then I welcome it with open arms.
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Old November 24 2013, 02:54 PM   #37
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Re: Renumber The Doctors?

You know, this is quite the legacy Moffat is leaving behind. It's already gotten to the point where we should essentially stop referring to the seasons by the # season and now we should probably stop referring to the Doctors by their numerical designation. You don't suppose Moffat hates numbers?

The ironic thing is it wasn't until Moffat took over that the Doctor's current numerical designation was even mentioned in the show itself.
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Old November 24 2013, 03:27 PM   #38
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Re: Renumber The Doctors?

^ It certainly causes a strange mess in the branding of the series. Every episode guide, every piece of merchandise (action figures etc) that have refered to the Doctor numerically, they've either all become instantly irrelevant, or else we are going to have to ignore the thrust of this script (which is, yes, that Hurt is a proper Doctor and he's simply one that the other new series Doctors have all been ignoring/repressing from their memory until now).

In my view it's actually easier to accept that we've all just been operating under wrong assumptions for the last seven years. To just accept at face value that Hurt was the ninth Doctor, Eccleston the tenth, Tennant the eleventh and so on. I'm still not convinced we've seen anything on screen which disproves this, but we've certainly seen plenty of evidence that seems to confirm it!
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Old November 24 2013, 03:33 PM   #39
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Re: Renumber The Doctors?

The main problem is that since Moffat took over he's been drilling it into our heads that Smith is the Eleventh Doctor. The premiere episode is titled "The Eleventh Hour." The Doctor refers to himself as "the Eleventh" in The Lodger, which also features him wearing a jersey with 11 on it during the football game. And then there's the whole "Fall of the Eleventh at Trenzalore," which is kind of an integral part of the overall arc of the Smith era. So Moffat has gone out of his way to make sure we think of Smith as the Eleventh Doctor just to reveal that he's actually the Twelfth.
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Old November 24 2013, 03:37 PM   #40
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Re: Renumber The Doctors?

davejames wrote: View Post
intrinsical wrote: View Post
The timelord general and his staff sort of answered it towards the end.

"All twelve of them"
"No sir, all thirteen!"

At least for the Time Lords, Capaldi is the 13th.
Well only because Hurt identified himself as a Doctor on the viewscreen. With the war going on, I doubt they had much time to quibble over the details.
But they were calling him the Doctor earlier in the Episode and so were the Daleks.
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Old November 24 2013, 03:39 PM   #41
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Re: Renumber The Doctors?

The Wormhole wrote:
The main problem is that since Moffat took over he's been drilling it into our heads that Smith is the Eleventh Doctor. The premiere episode is titled "The Eleventh Hour." The Doctor refers to himself as "the Eleventh" in The Lodger, which also features him wearing a jersey with 11 on it during the football game. And then there's the whole "Fall of the Eleventh at Trenzalore," which is kind of an integral part of the overall arc of the Smith era. So Moffat has gone out of his way to make sure we think of Smith as the Eleventh Doctor just to reveal that he's actually the Twelfth.
^ It is incredibly strange, isn't it? But on the other hand, Moffat has kind of covered that too: Hurt is a repressed memory. The Smith version of the Doctor has actually convinced himself that he's the eleventh incarnation, and it isn't until the climactic events of Series 7 that he is suddenly reminded, brutally, that there's an entire incarnation that he's been kind of pretending never happened. But it did. 'Day of the Doctor' is really all about the Doctor finally accepting that.
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Old November 24 2013, 03:48 PM   #42
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Re: Renumber The Doctors?

While Capaldi might be the 13th, it really doesn't make much sense to adjust the last 3 retroactively. If Voyager introduced a secret Enterprise between B and C we wouldn't suddenly start calling the D the E and the E the F, etc. As far as 8, 9 and 10 are concerned he is an aberration that doesn't deserve the name, and 11 only knows the truth after the events of The Day of the Doctor, so just let him be The War Doctor and there simply won't be a 12th Doctor.
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Old November 24 2013, 04:09 PM   #43
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Re: Renumber The Doctors?

Venardhi wrote: View Post
While Capaldi might be the 13th, it really doesn't make much sense to adjust the last 3 retroactively. If Voyager introduced a secret Enterprise between B and C we wouldn't suddenly start calling the D the E and the E the F, etc.
While it's not exactly the same, NX-01 does pose a very similar problem. How many instances in TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY were there where Jon Archer, his crew and the historically important first warp five ship should have been mentioned... but they weren't?

We might make allowances for phrases like 'Fifth starship to bear the name' and all that, but there are so many other occasions where NX-01 should have been a topic of conversation in 24th century Trek, but it wasn't. (Nemesis excepted, of course. )

The reality is: canon changes sometimes. Star Trek canon has grown to accept NX-01 despite a lot of evidence that was (previously) contrary to its existence, and I'd like to think -- I'd like to hope -- that Doctor Who fandom would be big enough to accept Moffat's blatant retcons at face value, and allow their perceptions of the 'canon' to be similarly evolved to accomodate that every Doctor since 2005 needs to be bumped up +1.

I'm not naive enough to believe that will actually happen, though. Fandoms can be a spectacularly finicky lot.
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Old November 24 2013, 05:02 PM   #44
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Re: Renumber The Doctors?

Venardhi wrote: View Post
While Capaldi might be the 13th, it really doesn't make much sense to adjust the last 3 retroactively. If Voyager introduced a secret Enterprise between B and C we wouldn't suddenly start calling the D the E and the E the F, etc. As far as 8, 9 and 10 are concerned he is an aberration that doesn't deserve the name, and 11 only knows the truth after the events of The Day of the Doctor, so just let him be The War Doctor and there simply won't be a 12th Doctor.
That's hardly comparative because each of the Enterprises are different ships while The Doctor is the same physical person with different faces and personalities.
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Old November 24 2013, 05:10 PM   #45
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Re: Renumber The Doctors?

captain crow wrote: View Post
Candlelight wrote: View Post
Granted we never see who Hurt regenerates into - we assume Eccleston -
Actually we do see him regenerate into Eccleston.
Anyone else that should have gone on for a second or so longer. I get that Ecclestone wasn't part of it, but on first viewing you couldn't really tell at all he was regenerating into Ecclestone. I had to rewind it a few times to see the *very brief* details. They could have easily added some more in with CGI
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