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Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old November 23 2013, 09:33 PM   #106
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

Cara007 wrote: View Post
2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
You'll ... you'll what, teacake? Clarify, for us ... specify! Personally, I'm fine with the idea. Just don't let Kirk marry some large-breasted green alien with scales and nostrils on her forehead ...
Kirk can have sleep with lots of women but he cant commit to one. I get why most fans say he is married to the enterprise.
Physical love doesn't last. No matter how good it is, we may not want to admit to it, but yeah ... you get used to it, eventually. That's when the infidelity begins ...

The point is, Cara ... you ladies want Kirk to be single, because, well ... it helps the fantasy.

Same thing with Spock. He never married T'Pring or Saavik for a reason: you women would never accept it. Oh, intellectually, you're fine with the concept that he might secretly long for, and fantasize about, a deeply committed relationship with a woman ... with you. But if these studds you love were to have the temerity to wed onscreen ... that way madness lay, as far as you ladies are concerned.
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Old November 23 2013, 09:39 PM   #107
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

BigJake wrote: View Post
Psion wrote: View Post
Under all that rock, it was a miracle the transporters worked ... It's even easier to conceive of a skeleton crew of refugees from the 20th century lacking the competence required to notice the life-filled bubble scores of meters away from the center of attention.
The writers pre-established that sensors could not detect the Genesis cave. Enterprise's sensors didn't detect it either. While it's an example of sensors working at the power of drama -- perhaps there were Plot-Convenient Deposits above the cave -- both ship's sensors play by the same rules throughout the film and Khan's motivation does not change. Bill is just wrong on this one.
Since no one actually told Khan where Genesis was at, he would have had to used sensors to lock onto it.

Chekov says "you have the coordinates" but no one actually gives Khan them to beam up Genesis.

TWOK is a fun movie to watch but the plot doesn't hold up if you look too close. Like much of Star Trek.
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Old November 23 2013, 09:41 PM   #108
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

BigJake wrote: View Post
No, I'm pretty sure Spock just arms them.
Yeah, that's likely. But exactly what arming them entails has a bearing on just how stupid it is for Khan to hide his loved ones in the torpedoes, right? Which is my point, and which why I think this is something worth checking, and why I even brought it up.

Does arming them require only something electronic, or does it require physically rearranging components inside the case? Just how safe are the torpedoes when they're first delivered to the Enterprise?

And one other thing, would they even launch? Admiral Marcus seems to think so (I think!), but does he think that when the torpedoes are first delivered? Or, did Khan just trick him into thinking they were ready, to try to smuggle out his people (this is how I interpreted everything, based on my experiences in the theater)? All this is stuff that will take me further rewatches to be able to discuss intelligently.
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Old November 23 2013, 09:54 PM   #109
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

BillJ wrote: View Post
Chekov says "you have the coordinates" but no one actually gives Khan them to beam up Genesis.
It is implied that Terrell and Chekov contacted him covertly while the others' attention was off them (presumably in some way using those large wrist communicators they reveal). I think you're rather reaching here, though I can't see why.

(This incidentally is likely an ancillary reason Khan beams up Genesis but not Kirk. He's working blind, with only the coordinates Terrell has given him. That's why he has to initially try to get Terrell to kill Kirk, and also why Kirk says "you'll have to come down here." For whatever reason, the scanners of either ship can't penetrate Regula One's rock.)
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Old November 23 2013, 10:23 PM   #110
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Does arming them require only something electronic, or does it require physically rearranging components inside the case? Just how safe are the torpedoes when they're first delivered to the Enterprise?
Didn't McCoy accidentally arm one when he and Marcus were examining them?
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Old November 23 2013, 10:25 PM   #111
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Does arming them require only something electronic, or does it require physically rearranging components inside the case? Just how safe are the torpedoes when they're first delivered to the Enterprise?
Didn't McCoy accidentally arm one when he and Marcus were examining them?
Well, it appeared so, but would it have blown up? If I recall correctly, they couldn't scan them, so how could they know? Best to assume it would explode, but at that point they didn't know what was inside them, IIRC.

I don't have a problem saying that as plots in Trek films go, STID's is hands down the most complicated! I'm still not sure I understand what went on!
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Old November 24 2013, 02:49 AM   #112
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

BigJake wrote: View Post
Well, if you don't want ham, you surely don't want Montalban's Khan. That's for damn sure. If his being an ancient exotic tyrant or an analogue of Captain Ahab doesn't work for you either, hey, different strokes.
And to be fair, "ham" in this context is something I'm not a fan of, more often than not. Intentionally over-the-top/hammy depictions of characters is something I'm very picky about in my sci-fi. It could work in certain settings, with a certain flavor. Star Trek is not one of them.

Loading one's own crew into explosive torpedoes doesn't actually sell a villain as being more intelligent and menacing than Montalban's Khan for me.
That's a very strange thing to lock onto. Of course that particular action on Khan's part wouldn't sell him as being "menacing". It wasn't supposed to be. I don't really understand what you're going for here; I could say "Standing around worrying about cooking eggs while Picard begs him for help saving an entire star system doesn't actually sell Kirk as being very heroic." That happened in Generations, but that particular scene wasn't supposed to have anything to do with that aspect of Kirk's character (heroism). Perhaps Cumberbatch Khan's degree of menace should be measured by... scenes that had any intention at all of trying to make him seem menacing?

If you don't think he was menacing, fine, but I find your choice of criteria bizarre.

As for intelligence: I'll admit that I agree with the most recent post by CorpCap, that the whole torpedo/Khan/Marcus thing was quite convoluted, which was a weakness in the film. Still, it's not just about the specific details of the plan itself; STID Khan felt intelligent and dangerous. He had a serious, threatening, always-one-step-ahead air about him in virtually every scene he was in (and that's not even getting into the one-man army sequence against the Klingons). TWOK Khan didn't. And whatever you can say about how convoluted and twisty STID Khan's plan was, at least he HAD a plan! One of the things that undercut TWOK for me was that the villain seemed frankly like a cackling bully who couldn't plan more than fifteen minutes ahead. The only threatening things he could do were "shock value" threats; i.e. hanging the Regula 1 scientists up from the ceiling after killing them.

And the parts of Cumberbatch's performance where he's selling us on his being Khan were like mainlining concentrated ham extract for me. Cumberbatch's villain is otherwise not bad, but not a huge standout from the Die Hard villain mould; I think there's a reason that we have a scene with Spock calling Spock so that Spock can explain to Spock why Khan is a guy to be feared.
Well, to each their own I suppose. I know I'm in the minority in that I can't take Montalban Khan seriously. That said: ham? From Cumberbatch?

Well.

Okay, I guess... I have a very hard time buying any part of his performance as "hammy". Not debating pure quality, mind you; I have no problem with you simply not liking his portrayal as much as Montalban's. But ham? I really don't see it, especially in a discussion about a character whose previous incarnation was played by Ricardo Montalban in a movie that also had William Shatner. Can't get much hammier than that duo.

Calling it "inexplicable" seems like reaching to me, just as with "why didn't Khan beam him up from Regula One"? It's a bad call, obviously, but hardly an "inexplicable" one, especially from Kirk who's been accustomed to finessing regulations in favour of his own judgment for most of his career, and in fact has no reason to expect an attack from a ship of his own fleet.
The shields things and the beaming thing are entirely different.

Why didn't Khan beam him up? He thought (as many people in this thread have pointed out - yourself included, if memory serves) that he had stranded Kirk in a dead planet; he believed he had outmaneuvered the Admiral and consigned him to a fate that Kirk would consider worse than death. So right there: that works. That's why he didn't beam him up. His motivations were to simply do more than "just kill" (i.e. in a conventional way, by simply shooting him or something) Kirk.

The shields thing is completely indefensible. Not just because there is ZERO downside to putting up the shields in that situation, not just because presumably, Saavik is no dummy and she seems to be really concerned about the situation, but also because Kirk himself acknowledges that the situation is screwy while continuing to refuse to put up the shields. "This is damn peculiar," he says, with a suspicious, concerned look on his face, shortly before going to yellow alert but still not raising shields? Sure, Kirk has been relying on his judgement for some time, but he's generally not shown to be stupid. And yes, they wouldn't expect an attack from a ship in their own fleet. They also wouldn't expect one of their own ships to be creeping toward them while ignoring hails and - eventually - outright lying about having a faulty system causing a comm malfunction. Then the Reliant puts up her own shields! Surely that ups the level of alarm on the Enterprise by an order of magnitude. Yet still nothing from Kirk. Finally, when the Reliant locks phasers, Kirk orders shields up, but of course it's too late. The entire situation was unusual and alarming and called for caution at multiple points - something that the movie's writers directly acknowledge with the on-screen dialog. Yet Kirk just... doesn't take action to protect his ship. There's no explanation. Hence, the very definition of "inexplicable."
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Old November 24 2013, 05:55 AM   #113
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

The reason Kirk doesn't raise the shields is to show that Kirk has lost it to some extent, is rusty, is getting old, a bit arrogant, is more realistic than a super-hero.
It was done deliberately and then in the end when he defeats Khan (at a great cost) he makes up for it to some extent. It was the deliberate intent of the writers to show some
vulnerability in Kirk.
Its not 'inexcusable' or 'inexplicable' IMO. People may not like it that their hero Starship Captains can make a mistake but it happened in TOS on occasion - usually not at the cost of people lives or the ship.
I personally would have preferred Kirk to always be perfect and be a cool older Captain like nuPike but that's not the way they went with the TOS movies.

As the Spock's Khan scream I can take it or leave it. I can see what the writers were trying to do and I as a fan appreciate it.
In the 3 times I saw STID in the cinema no-one groaned or fainted in horror at the scream, or at the underwear scene, or when we saw Prime Spock. Most people just seemed pretty buzzed and enjoyed the movie.
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Old November 24 2013, 06:21 AM   #114
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

Even a human screaming like how Spock did would be over the top. So when a Vulcan of all people does it, it's like WTF... The Shat pulled it off and he did it well in his unique Shatnerian fashion, but it's not something you recommend for any actor in any movie to do again. Just ask Lucas and James Earl Jones in Ep III.
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Old November 24 2013, 09:34 AM   #115
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
Cara007 wrote: View Post
2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
You'll ... you'll what, teacake? Clarify, for us ... specify! Personally, I'm fine with the idea. Just don't let Kirk marry some large-breasted green alien with scales and nostrils on her forehead ...
Kirk can have sleep with lots of women but he cant commit to one. I get why most fans say he is married to the enterprise.
Physical love doesn't last. No matter how good it is, we may not want to admit to it, but yeah ... you get used to it, eventually. That's when the infidelity begins ...

The point is, Cara ... you ladies want Kirk to be single, because, well ... it helps the fantasy.

Same thing with Spock. He never married T'Pring or Saavik for a reason: you women would never accept it. Oh, intellectually, you're fine with the concept that he might secretly long for, and fantasize about, a deeply committed relationship with a woman ... with you. But if these studds you love were to have the temerity to wed onscreen ... that way madness lay, as far as you ladies are concerned.
Wait wait wait wait wait.

You have me all wrong. I am not one of those girls. I absolutely despise those kind of girls. I want the best for kirk. In fact all my favourite heroes in sci fi and fatansy from Luke skywalker to harry potter to King Aragorn of Godor to Flash Gordon to Peter Parker to Clark Kent all had and made commitment to women and I loved it. I loved it because it was very realistic. it is part of being a human being.

The people that don't want kirk or spock to find girls are slash female fans. I hope borgboy does not feel insulted because we have been clashing on this issue, but more importantly I am glad someone else has spoken out on this nonsense behaviour driven by many female fans.

They hate when the fictional guy they like is in a committed relationship with a girl because it destroys the fantasy, YES IT SURE DOES. Trust me , I am not one of those girls. I loved spock and uhura from the 2009 film. One of the best sci-fi couples I had seen in a long time. I was quite disappointed with their relationship in the second film but then again STiD was quite disappointing for me. overall I still like to them together. please don't think I am one of those silly female fans who, don't want a guy to commit to any other girl unless its them.

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Old November 24 2013, 09:49 AM   #116
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

Cara007 wrote: View Post
please don't think I am one of those silly female fans who, don't want a guy to commit to any other girl unless its them.
You are talking about 13 year olds. Or rather, a stereotype of 13 year olds. Just because someone doesn't like an onscreen relationship doesn't mean it's because they want one of the players for themselves.
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Old November 24 2013, 10:10 AM   #117
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

Cara007 wrote: View Post
Wait wait wait wait wait.
... that's cute!
I hear you and I do understand what you mean, perfectly.
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Old November 24 2013, 10:12 AM   #118
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
The reason Kirk doesn't raise the shields is to show that Kirk has lost it to some extent, is rusty, is getting old, a bit arrogant, is more realistic than a super-hero.
Right. Getting old and rusty is—surprise!—the major theme of the film. Though I have to quibble with the not a superhero bit. Kirk still had aces up his sleeve. He whipped out the prefix codes, and after having his ass spanked, he came back swinging, putting up the magnificent fight to get them to the point where it was up to Spock.

Saito S wrote: View Post
TWOK Khan didn't. And whatever you can say about how convoluted and twisty STID Khan's plan was, at least he HAD a plan! One of the things that undercut TWOK for me was that the villain seemed frankly like a cackling bully who couldn't plan more than fifteen minutes ahead. The only threatening things he could do were "shock value" threats; i.e. hanging the Regula 1 scientists up from the ceiling after killing them.
Well, oldKhan's lookahead wasn't as flashy as nuKhan's, that's for sure. Notice that oldKhan left Terrell and Chekov on Regula One before going off to fight Kirk. Using them to locate Genesis was a contingency plan, should he fail himself, which was smart. Also, luring the Enterprise by threatening Carol Marcus and then jamming communications with Regula One: very smart. The jamming of course played a part in the Reliant slipping in close at first, since it provided some measure of plausibility in the explanation of overloaded communications equipment. Where he was stupid was that he forgot to use his secret decoder ring. And, ultimately he proved to be old and rusty, too, unable to keep up with the Kirk he had rejuvenated.
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Old November 24 2013, 10:39 AM   #119
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
The reason Kirk doesn't raise the shields is to show that Kirk has lost it to some extent, is rusty, is getting old, a bit arrogant, is more realistic than a super-hero.
It was done deliberately and then in the end when he defeats Khan (at a great cost) he makes up for it to some extent. It was the deliberate intent of the writers to show some
vulnerability in Kirk.
Its not 'inexcusable' or 'inexplicable' IMO. People may not like it that their hero Starship Captains can make a mistake but it happened in TOS on occasion - usually not at the cost of people lives or the ship.
I personally would have preferred Kirk to always be perfect and be a cool older Captain like nuPike but that's not the way they went with the TOS movies.
And I can appreciate that. In fact, I'd say I don't have a strong preference for either going with "he's old and rusty (at least for a time)" vs. "he's still on top of his game" during the time frame of TWOK - conceptually, that is. And you can see what they were going for in the very next scene: after they drive Reliant off, Kirk comments that he got caught with his pants down, and tells Saavik to keep on quoting regs at him, acknowledging the mistake. That's all fine. My problem is the Reliant approach scene itself. The execution just didn't work for me. It was one of those things that pops your suspension of disbelief and pulls you out of the story. It came off like "he's not putting the shields up because the writers need him to not put the shields up otherwise this scene won't work", instead of "he's not putting the shields up because he's old/rusty/arrogant and is having a moment of completely not living up to his former self."

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
The reason Kirk doesn't raise the shields is to show that Kirk has lost it to some extent, is rusty, is getting old, a bit arrogant, is more realistic than a super-hero.
Right. Getting old and rusty is—surprise!—the major theme of the film. Though I have to quibble with the not a superhero bit. Kirk still had aces up his sleeve. He whipped out the prefix codes, and after having his ass spanked, he came back swinging, putting up the magnificent fight to get them to the point where it was up to Spock.

Saito S wrote: View Post
TWOK Khan didn't. And whatever you can say about how convoluted and twisty STID Khan's plan was, at least he HAD a plan! One of the things that undercut TWOK for me was that the villain seemed frankly like a cackling bully who couldn't plan more than fifteen minutes ahead. The only threatening things he could do were "shock value" threats; i.e. hanging the Regula 1 scientists up from the ceiling after killing them.
Well, oldKhan's lookahead wasn't as flashy as nuKhan's, that's for sure. Notice that oldKhan left Terrell and Chekov on Regula One before going off to fight Kirk. Using them to locate Genesis was a contingency plan, should he fail himself, which was smart. Also, luring the Enterprise by threatening Carol Marcus and then jamming communications with Regula One: very smart. The jamming of course played a part in the Reliant slipping in close at first, since it provided some measure of plausibility in the explanation of overloaded communications equipment. Where he was stupid was that he forgot to use his secret decoder ring. And, ultimately he proved to be old and rusty, too, unable to keep up with the Kirk he had rejuvenated.
I suppose, though tying into my problem with the shields issue, the Reliant slipping in and getting that sucker punch seemed like dumb luck. Khan wasn't smart as much as Kirk was slow to react. Which may even be the point; again we're going round from one point back to the next, as we again revisit the theme of being old and rusty. So I can see that these elements are there, in terms of intention, but the execution just fell flat for me. I didn't buy any of it, even if I could sort of see what they were going for.
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Old November 24 2013, 10:44 AM   #120
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

teacake wrote: View Post
Cara007 wrote: View Post
please don't think I am one of those silly female fans who, don't want a guy to commit to any other girl unless its them.
You are talking about 13 year olds. Or rather, a stereotype of 13 year olds. Just because someone doesn't like an onscreen relationship doesn't mean it's because they want one of the players for themselves.

Sadly its always the case, 80% of women not just 13 yr olds who for no real and legitimate reason just hate on the on screen male and female couple.They do it out of jealousy. I ran into a K/S slash shipper who admitted that she was jealous that uhura was with spock.

Spock is not even real but yeah I get the fantasy.

I did not use to understand how girls and I mean girls only like to spend their time writing about the destruction of the loving male/female couple and making the guy single or pairing him up with his best male friend or even his worst enemy, but as time went by I caught on. Girls rather see the guy they like become gay or remain single than see him with another girl.

I am not surprised 2takesfrakes stereotyped me as one of those girls. I understand why he did but I am proud to say I am not one of those awful girls.

Of course teacake, not all of girls behave like that.
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