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Old November 22 2013, 04:11 PM   #856
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
I can't help but get back to Mytran's suggestion that the extended corridor ahead of the engine room (i.e. the forced perspective extension) is, indeed, a holographic display or a simple display screen / wall panel.

We are watching these decisive scenes at a stage, where not even the main viewscreen aboard the bridge has been activated, yet.
If the bridge screen is showing a simple test pattern there would be no reason to expect a holodisplay in the corridor to show such an elaborate faux-corridor screen that doesn't line up properly when viewed out of angle. IMHO, you guys are trying too hard to discredit that FP corridor.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
IIRC we never see the extended corridor again once the ship is operational (and in TWOK this corridor ended where such a display panel would be).
That's a bit misleading. Although we're not shown that corridor again in the same movie (IIRC) it doesn't validate that it's a holocorridor (which again, makes no sense as to it's existence.)

In TWOK there is a solid wall there where the FP corridor would be that also eliminates the gap between the actual set and the FP corridor. Since we do see physical changes in the engine room (it's more cramped) it can be argued that they needed the forward space and added machinery where the FP corridor was. But to claim that the TWOK wall justifies the non-existence of the FP corridor is misleading.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
I know, the turbo lift cab display is a rough approximation at best, but I'm confident that the actual existing (set) part of the blue corridor is essentially a turbo lift lobby - and the holographic or display screen would indicate which turbo lift cabs would arrive next (left or right arrows) for anybody leaving the engine room.
That turbo lift display also would put the turbolift exit that Kirk came out of ahead of the engine room and move the engine room to the middle/stern of the ship
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Old November 22 2013, 04:13 PM   #857
Mytran
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
a quote from Roddenberry's TMP novelization:

"Montgomery Scott stood in the midst of what to many would have seemed pandemonium. The engine's intermix chamber, extending three levels above him and four more below, did not yet ..."

Is this still compatible with a vertical intermix shaft that runs up all the way into the impulse deflection crystal?
Maybe not, but it is compatible with the concept of an engine room at the centreline of the secondary hull - similar to the setup on the Enterprise-D.
Roddenberry's ship layout differs in several places with the final sets so this is not such a big deal. However, it could be suggestive of an entirely different engineering arrangement - with matter at the top, antimatter from the bottom. Unfortunately, Roddenberry does not elaborate.
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Old November 23 2013, 12:34 AM   #858
Robert Comsol
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
If the bridge screen is showing a simple test pattern there would be no reason to expect a holodisplay in the corridor to show such an elaborate faux-corridor screen that doesn't line up properly when viewed out of angle. IMHO, you guys are trying too hard to discredit that FP corridor.
We do not know if all panels in testing mode have to show similar patterns. But again, at this stage in the story, systems are hastily checked and tested prior to departure. Fact is, of course, that despite all the movement in the real part of the blue corridor, we never see any personnel movement in the FP part.

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
That's a bit misleading. Although we're not shown that corridor again in the same movie (IIRC) it doesn't validate that it's a holocorridor (which again, makes no sense as to it's existence.)
The depiction of a fake corridor extension, instead of turbo lift directors, could qualify as a visual message "turbo lift out of order, you'll have to walk and climb ladders". In TOS we always had direction signs with texts, but for TMP Lee Cole created an abundance of direction signs (i.e. pictographs) without text, so in general the TMP style was of a more visual and symbolic nature (and changed "back" with TWOK and its "docking ports" spelled out. TMP just relied on the docking port symbol/s).

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Since we do see physical changes in the engine room (it's more cramped) it can be argued that they needed the forward space and added machinery where the FP corridor was. But to claim that the TWOK wall justifies the non-existence of the FP corridor is misleading.
Valid points. My bottom line was that the extended FP part of the previously blue corridor wasn't there in TWOK, thus it could have been a display panel in TMP.

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
That turbo lift display also would put the turbolift exit that Kirk came out of ahead of the engine room and move the engine room to the middle/stern of the ship
Strong argument to treat the FP corridor as the real thing, no doubt, although we do know one major flaw of the turbo shaft network display in TMP (and therefore are entitled to doubt its accuracy, IMHO).

At this stage I will finish my reproduction attempt of the TWOK torpedo bay, first, to see what locations are equally left for turbo and intermix shaft as both of these have to be outside the torpedo bay space.

@ Mytran

Interesting suggestion! Come to further think about it deuterium tanks in large areas of the connecting dorsal would not only make good use of this otherwise enigmatic space but from such an in-between location both impulse engines and the intermix chamber coil could be fueled with reactants.

Bob
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Old November 23 2013, 01:01 AM   #859
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
We do not know if all panels in testing mode have to show similar patterns. But again, at this stage in the story, systems are hastily checked and tested prior to departure. Fact is, of course, that despite all the movement in the real part of the blue corridor, we never see any personnel movement in the FP part.
By that same argument, the lower vertical intermix shaft is a holoscreen as well since we don't see any personnel movement in the FP part as well. You can go that route, but I'm not going to as that is a slippery-slope to discard FP parts "at will" when it doesn't suit our needs. If there was a better in-universe, logical argument as to why that isn't a real corridor that's great. But I'm not seeing that good argument at all here.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
That's a bit misleading. Although we're not shown that corridor again in the same movie (IIRC) it doesn't validate that it's a holocorridor (which again, makes no sense as to it's existence.)
The depiction of a fake corridor extension, instead of turbo lift directors, could qualify as a visual message "turbo lift out of order, you'll have to walk and climb ladders". In TOS we always had direction signs with texts, but for TMP Lee Cole created an abundance of direction signs (i.e. pictographs) without text, so in general the TMP style was of a more visual and symbolic nature (and changed "back" with TWOK and its "docking ports" spelled out. TMP just relied on the docking port symbol/s).
In TOS we had signs to indicate where you are but again I'm not seeing your rationale for a fake corridor extension in TMP when in your own argument and in TMP we are shown signs on doors and walls as well.
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Old November 23 2013, 04:38 PM   #860
Gagarin
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Hmm... well keep going!

I'm also reminded of "Keep It Simple".
I'm not sure if I'd want the Thermians building the ship, I feel it has to have some kind of internal logic beyond 'it's on the screen, either it's there and we have to make every single engineering decision based on that one shot or we have a holographic projector there'. Creativity thrives on limitations...but I'm still in awe of subjecting yourself to this kind of limitation!

What would Montgomery Scott do?

As before, back to lurking and watching for me!
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Old November 24 2013, 12:14 AM   #861
Robert Comsol
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Gagarin wrote: View Post
I feel it has to have some kind of internal logic beyond 'it's on the screen, either it's there and we have to make every single engineering decision based on that one shot or we have a holographic projector there'.
Frankly, I wouldn't mind if it were possible to shift the intermix shaft all the way to the stern to the point where it matches the center of the yellow circle at the bottom of the TOS Enterprise because that's where I placed Reactor 3 in my TOS Enterprise deck plan project here at the BBS, so I'd welcome the FP blue corridor extension.

However, we have to deal with the forward and aft torpedo bay from TWOK and therefore, IMO, the spacing between the turbo shaft (presumably between the forward torpedo launchers) and the continuing intermix shaft (presumably behind these "back walls" of both torpedo bays) would somehow have to match the distance between the intermix shaft on the main engine room level and a turboshaft somewhere near the blue corridor.




I'm mostly concerned that the blue corridor with the FP extension shifts the intermix shaft beyond torpedo section docking port. As a result, the intermix shaft would have to run through the center of the aft torpedo launcher (Torpedo Bay Section 4), which it apparently does not in TWOK.

I agree that he ship has to have internal logic which always brings me back to the turbo shaft system. The TWOK torpedo bay extends so much to the bow that the remaining turbo shaft space and/or location is limited to the narrow bow of the connecting dorsal.

Thus, on the upper level of the engine room Kirk first showed up in TMP either the blue corridor is shorter (because the FP extension is a fake display) to make space for a central turbo shaft or the blue corridor is leaning towards the starboard side enough to have a turboshaft in the center axis / horizontal intermix shaft alignment. The original studio set plans could suggest that, but then - why were Kirk and Scotty running towards the starboard side?

If the turbo lifts are exclusively located to the port side and the "whole" blue corridor is separating these from the other side, there couldn't have been a turbo lift cab there to get them to the transporter room which apparently was located in the saucer.

Bob
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Old November 24 2013, 01:11 AM   #862
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Gagarin wrote: View Post
I'm also reminded of "Keep It Simple".
I'm not sure if I'd want the Thermians building the ship, I feel it has to have some kind of internal logic beyond 'it's on the screen, either it's there and we have to make every single engineering decision based on that one shot or we have a holographic projector there'. Creativity thrives on limitations...but I'm still in awe of subjecting yourself to this kind of limitation!
Funny enough, the Thermian way is the simplest way, IMO.

It takes what's on screen (in this case, TOS and the first six movies) and goes with it. It doesn't try to second guess what's on screen with artist, designer, production or writer's intent. It doesn't try to blend in different universes and timelines into one universal version. By limiting to what's on screen it keeps it simple.

Now, the areas that are not shown, that's up for Thermian imagination

Gagarin wrote: View Post
What would Montgomery Scott do?
Which one?

The TOS one that was willing to General Order 24 Eminiar back to the stone age and also ?
The TNG one that survived to "Relics" and saw Kirk still alive?
Or the "Generations" one that saw Kirk die?

Not that simple

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post

Thus, on the upper level of the engine room Kirk first showed up in TMP either the blue corridor is shorter (because the FP extension is a fake display) to make space for a central turbo shaft or the blue corridor is leaning towards the starboard side enough to have a turboshaft in the center axis / horizontal intermix shaft alignment. The original studio set plans could suggest that, but then - why were Kirk and Scotty running towards the starboard side?

If the turbo lifts are exclusively located to the port side and the "whole" blue corridor is separating these from the other side, there couldn't have been a turbo lift cab there to get them to the transporter room which apparently was located in the saucer.
The blue corridor is offset to the starboard side so there is room for the turbolift to run vertically offset to the port side and still either at the last minute slide to center to go up the neck or stay offset to the port and still fit through, IMHO.

As to where Scotty and Kirk ran off to when the transporter malfunctioned, I figured it was to the transporter in the engineering hull and thus out and to the starboard corridor. There's room on the starboard side and also if they needed to go down a ladder one level to the space between the engine room and the cargo bay for a transporter to be placed there.
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Old November 24 2013, 02:23 AM   #863
kennysmith
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

my question to you is this?, the photo you got here do you have any idea of how far apart the decks are with the black line you got on the photo of where you have this 305M?, and what is the space is where the black line is at feet " > ' < "?, i like to know if you have any idea for that space is at?.
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Old November 24 2013, 05:08 AM   #864
Praetor
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

It's nice to just sit back and read someone else's thread.

Philosophically I agree that the stupid blue corridor is best ignored, but I admire what blssdwlf is doing here, and in other ways moving the intermix chamber back does solve some issues. And of course the scale does help with the issue of the cargo/shuttlbays.

Regarding the torpedo bay, I always wondered about the damage Khan inflicted. Either those decks just don't burn. () or we're seeing two bays. When I was younger I thought maybe there were meant to be two forward-facing bays side by side... which would be rather impossible without ratcheting up that size even more. An aft bay seems a reasonable compromise.
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Old November 24 2013, 01:40 PM   #865
Mytran
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
As to where Scotty and Kirk ran off to when the transporter malfunctioned, I figured it was to the transporter in the engineering hull and thus out and to the starboard corridor. There's room on the starboard side and also if they needed to go down a ladder one level to the space between the engine room and the cargo bay for a transporter to be placed there.
The issue with the timing and layout of the Engineering/Transporter Room/Corridor scenes is an interesting one. We're not given any on-screen indication of where the Transporter Rooms are, but backstage materials put them in the saucer, and presumably the Engine Room is near the top of the secondary hull. Between leaving the Engine Room and arriving at the Transporter Booth a little under 9 movie-seconds elapse. I'm willing to grant that some time may have been lost in editing, but a transporter cycle just isn't that long, even in TMP.

I doubt that there is really time for Kirk & Scotty to race down the corridor in the secondary hull, wait for some doors to open, board a turbolift, call out their destination, wait for the doors to close, ride 8 decks upwards and sideways, get out of the turbolift and run down enough corridors so that Kirk can lose his way again later.

I'm sorry to say it, but Commander Sonak & Lori would have been mush on the Transporter Room floor before Kirk and Scotty had even got to the turbolift.

So, what else might be happening on screen? It struck me that Kirk & Scotty dash out of the Engine Room set in the direction of where the Transporter Room set is, on the stage layout. I do not know whether this was a deliberate choice by the director or a casual choice by the actors, but it got me thinking:

What if the Transporter Room really is just down the corridor from the Engine Room?



There's certainly plenty of space on the stageplan layout to place the visible sections of blue corridor, silver corridor and Transporter Room. However, whether we treat the painted backdrops as actual corridors or not, we would quickly run out of room in the secondary hull for the Transporter Room corridor, even on a 1164' length vessel.

So, what about the saucer?



The corridors would need a little shuffling to make the centre of the circle the centre of the Engine Room, but it still works:



The theory of multiple engine rooms on TOS deck plans have been around for a while, but as far as I know it's never been applied to TMP. However, it would solve the problem of the extra long corridor, the timing of the dash to the Transporter Room, and the reason why the console around the intermix tube would have anything to do with basic transporter functions (this last always struck me as odd). It would also explain the dissappearance of the long corridor outside the Engine Room in TWOK - because it was never in the secondary hull in the first place! The TWOK Engine Room is clearly in the secondary hull, as shown by Khan's attack. A lot of TMP's engineering scenes took place there too (since they involved the Warp Drive) but the initial ones - they are firmly in the saucer, IMO.

I should add that I don't see the saucer's Engine Room as one that generates power. The original function of the Engine Room tube (from what I've read) was simply a "Power Transfer Conduit" of some kind - no warp core in THIS vessel, thankyou! The saucer's horizontal PTC operates in reverse, compared to the secondary hull. Instead of sending power to the V-shaped split, this is where power is delivered, either from the main M/AM reactors or the Impluse Engines (or both). The energy can then be directed to wherever it is needed in the primary hull.

The purpose of the Saucer Engine Room is to control and regulate energy transferred via the PTC for use by saucer systems. Systems like the large sensor/deflector cluster on the saucer bottom have their own direct PTC feed. The area above the Upper Engine Room would be where the PTC is split into feeds for the upper phase banks and secondary shielding for the Bridge. The saucer has a much larger surface area than the secondary hull and the deflector shield grid would need a lot of power in its own right. Plus gravity, life support and the various control systems etc would all combine to draw a great deal of energy, more than justifying the existence of a PTC in the saucer.

The Engine Room would have to be located fairly high up in the saucer to fit the 5 decks seen below when Kirk peeks over the railings. I think however that the upper part of the saucer disc would allow both the vertical and horizontal PTCs to squeeze in, even on a 1,000' long ship. The Main Engine Room may be 12' high, but the decks seen below don't appear anywhere near as tall. In fact in TNG the Lower Engine Room set was only 7' tall so it would not be unreasonable to think that TMP's were at least similar. I don't know how much sense this makes from a deck layout perspective, but 7' decks would at least allow the Saucer Engine Room to fit in a 1,000' hull.



Since the location (or quantity) of the Transporter Room(s) is never made clear in TMP, relocating it to the top of the saucer disc is not a problem. When Kirk is in the corridor after the transporter accident, he asks the way to "turboshaft 8" which might indicate that it is on Deck 8. To me however, such formal nomenclature merely reinforces Kirk's unfamiliarity with the refit vessel. The novelisation says that Kirk had studied the blueprints and plans of the refit project, and if this is true then he may well remember that turboshaft 8 is the one that runs up the starboard Bridge door, even if he can't recall specific deck layouts (or what deck number he is on).

So, the Transporter Room may be located much higher up in the saucer - indeed, TWOK shows us a "D" on the turbolift doors after Kirk & Saavik are rescued. Now, the "D" may or may not relate to a deck number...but that's a debate for another time!
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Old November 24 2013, 04:14 PM   #866
Robert Comsol
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

I was thinking the same thing, namely that the TMP engine room might actually be in the saucer. Great visualizations to illustrate the issue!

But I'd honestly be at a loss to rationalize the space the intermix shaft going all the way down to the ventral saucer dome is apparently consuming (this way we'd have a TMP feature not too dissimilar from the JJprise ).

I'd still prefer Kirk and Scotty taking a turbo lift cab to get to the saucer. After all, we had never experienced a transporter malfunction like this one before and the attempts to fix the malfunction could have already been in progress for a longer period of time than we actually saw onscreen.

Alternately the blue corridor right in front of the TMP engine room might lead to a flight of stairs and the level above, but in such a fashion that the long corridor we saw outside of the transporter room actually aligns with the horizontal intermix shaft one deck below.

Which now also reminds me that there is a problem with Kirk's running circular corridors in TWOK.

If you take the turbo lift down from the bridge to one of the lower decks to get from there to the engineering hull, you will not encounter any circular corridors on your way to the ladders in the connecting dorsal! However, if the ladder from above arrives at the aforementioned circular corridor above the engine room the TWOK footage would make more sense, IMHO.

(Of course, I do not have any problems at all with circular corridors in the engineering hull )

Bob
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Last edited by Robert Comsol; November 24 2013 at 04:28 PM.
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Old November 24 2013, 08:14 PM   #867
Mytran
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
But I'd honestly be at a loss to rationalize the space the intermix shaft going all the way down to the ventral saucer dome is apparently consuming (this way we'd have a TMP feature not too dissimilar from the JJprise ).
It's a bit wasteful of space, but I am assuming that there are systems at the bottom of the saucer that require a great deal of direct power (phasers, secondary deflectors, shield grid, long range sensors). Don't forget that the sub-level monitor rooms are a bit smaller than the Main Engine Room set (and square, not rectangular) so they wouldn't take up that much space really, while allowing for neccessary monitoring and maintainence on the vertical PTC.

Plus, if you take Kirk's downward gaze to mean that the sub-levels really are 7' high, they needn't reach all the way to the bottom on a 1,164' ship, levelling out at the top of the sensor thingy there, allowing for crucial. The seemingly short deck height needn't be a problem, since there is no need to correlate to the standard decks around them - indeed, there may not even be exits on those sub-levels at all! 7' divisions seemed to be the preferred height for maintainence levels anyway, it is the same with vertical Jefferies Tubes in the 24th century. It's more of a mystery why the main room has a 12' ceiling - again a practise carried on in starship designs for the next century.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Which now also reminds me that there is a problem with Kirk's running circular corridors in TWOK.
I'm not so sure - the ladders appear to be in odd places on the refit. Earlier in TWOK, in order to access a ladder to the bridge the gang had to run to the OUTER area of the saucer and turn left. Add that to the absurd number of turboshafts on the turbolift display and it gives the impression that the refit designers did not expect the ladders to be used very much. It would not surprise me at all to see Kirk having to take a bit of a long winded route in order to reach the dorsal ladders.

The real surprise is the speed at which both and Kirk and Spock got from the Bridge to Engineering - there's a LOT of levels in between!
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Old November 24 2013, 09:07 PM   #868
Robert Comsol
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Mytran wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Which now also reminds me that there is a problem with Kirk's running circular corridors in TWOK.
I'm not so sure - the ladders appear to be in odd places on the refit. Earlier in TWOK, in order to access a ladder to the bridge the gang had to run to the OUTER area of the saucer and turn left. Add that to the absurd number of turboshafts on the turbolift display and it gives the impression that the refit designers did not expect the ladders to be used very much. It would not surprise me at all to see Kirk having to take a bit of a long winded route in order to reach the dorsal ladders.
You're right, I forgot to consider the earlier scenes.

Mytran wrote: View Post
The real surprise is the speed at which both and Kirk and Spock got from the Bridge to Engineering - there's a LOT of levels in between!
The countdown started a 999 seconds IIRC. That would leave 16 minutes of time before detonation of the device. And we only need these 16 minutes for Spock to get down and fix the main energizer.

Bob
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Old November 24 2013, 09:25 PM   #869
Mytran
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Watch the footage again - those are way too fast to be seconds! Also, we are explictly told how long the countdown is:

DAVID: It's the Genesis Wave!
KIRK: What?
DAVID: They're on a build up to detonation!
KIRK: How soon?
DAVID: We encoded four minutes.
Thank goodness for that incredible Vulcan physique!
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Old November 24 2013, 11:00 PM   #870
Robert Comsol
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Frack! There has to be a slide down at the back of the connecting dorsal (the only thing I feel certain about is that Mr. Probert put flights of stairs at the back of the dorsal for both the movie and the TNG Enterprise)

I did mention in my TOS Enterprise thread there'd probably be some kind of slide enabling Spock in "Balance of Terror" to get so quickly to the phaser control room?

Bob
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