RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,163
Posts: 5,402,907
Members: 24,752
Currently online: 400
Newest member: xjkl123

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: Time’s Orphan
By: Michelle on Aug 30

September-October Trek Conventions And Appearances
By: T'Bonz on Aug 29

Lee Passes
By: T'Bonz on Aug 29

Trek Merchandise Sale
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek #39 Villain Revealed
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Trek Big Bang Figures
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek Seekers Cover Art
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Fan Film Axanar Kickstarter Success
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Two New Starship Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

Trek Actor Wins Emmy
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Welcome to the Trek BBS! > General Trek Discussion

General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

View Poll Results: vote
I prefer the Wrath of Khan 110 72.85%
I Prefer Into Darkness 17 11.26%
I like them both the same 24 15.89%
Voters: 151. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 23 2013, 10:14 PM   #151
LOKAI of CHERON
Commodore
 
LOKAI of CHERON's Avatar
 
Location: Post-apocalyptic ruins of my once mighty Homeworld.
Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

ichab wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
ichab wrote: View Post
I tend to prefer the original over the carbon copy.
They have Khan, Carol and a death scene in the warp core. Otherwise they're as much a "carbon copy" as Man of Steel is a carbon copy of Superman II.


Along with numerous lines and situations lifted straight from TWOK. But other than that, nothing similar.
Not really, those lines came off as loving "tips of hat" to me, and didn't feel overdone in any way.

I have to agree with King Daniel Into Darkness here.
__________________
YOU MONOTONE HUMANS ARE ALL ALIKE... FIRST YOU CONDEMN, THEN ATTACK.
LOKAI of CHERON is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 23 2013, 10:23 PM   #152
Bry_Sinclair
Commodore
 
Bry_Sinclair's Avatar
 
Location: Along the border of Talarian space
Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

LOKAI of CHERON wrote: View Post
ichab wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
They have Khan, Carol and a death scene in the warp core. Otherwise they're as much a "carbon copy" as Man of Steel is a carbon copy of Superman II.


Along with numerous lines and situations lifted straight from TWOK. But other than that, nothing similar.
Not really, those lines came off as loving "tips of hat" to me, and didn't feel overdone in any way.

I have to agree with King Daniel Into Darkness here.
I'm with ichad on this. I found the lines in question to be a rip-off rather than a homage.
__________________
Avatar: Captain Susanna Leijten, U.S.S. Silverfin NCC-4470, Border Service Third Cutter Squadron
Manip by: FltCpt. Bossco (STPMA)
Bry_Sinclair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 23 2013, 11:30 PM   #153
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England again
Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

ichab wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
ichab wrote: View Post
I tend to prefer the original over the carbon copy.
They have Khan, Carol and a death scene in the warp core. Otherwise they're as much a "carbon copy" as Man of Steel is a carbon copy of Superman II.


Along with numerous lines and situations lifted straight from TWOK. But other than that, nothing similar.
Definitely inspired by, but in no way a "carbon copy" of. Where was Genesis or the Mutara nebula battle in ID? Or Section 31, a starship crash or chase through the streets of San Francisco in WoK? If they're carbon copies, where is Khan's vendetta against Kirk?

I don't think you could tell a Khan story while remaining true to Trek lore and make it any more different than ID was to SS or WoK.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 24 2013, 03:30 AM   #154
Lucky
Commander
 
Lucky's Avatar
 
Location: Mississippi
Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

The Wrath of Khan is my favorite of the two. In my overall rankings, TWOK is #2 and STID is #4.
Lucky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 24 2013, 12:47 PM   #155
Nightdiamond
Fleet Captain
 
Nightdiamond's Avatar
 
Location: California
Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

It's a reboot of the original series that remade a sequel. That can be part of the reason people have had that reaction.

They dumped the history between, and had them meeting and serving together for barely a year.

Without the history and all the years spent between Kirk and Spock, Spock's reaction looked very generic.

Everything was rush, rush, spend a bigger budget, throw everything in, try to get bigger box office.

It has too much 'blockbuster' written into it. The Carol Marcus underwear scene was widely seen as unnecessary, except as another gimmick. Still hot though .
Nightdiamond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 24 2013, 12:57 PM   #156
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England again
Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

If I click with someone, I'm going to be as heartbroken if they die after knowing them for one year as I would after 15. The "They didn't know each other long enough" thing comes across to me as callous.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 24 2013, 10:16 PM   #157
Nightdiamond
Fleet Captain
 
Nightdiamond's Avatar
 
Location: California
Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

Of course-and true-- knowing someone for a year is enough to make anyone react like Spock did.

This is how I think some fans see it; One problem is that they based it on TWOK, which established that Kirk and Spock knew each other for decades, which made the impact so much stronger.

Having the characters go from academy to Starship command and knowing each other for only a year, lessens the impact.

The feeling that some fans get is that everything was put together quickly and forced together.

That along with Spock being a Vulcan-what would be the point of Vulcans as being being non extremely logical and non emotional, if they show him losing his composure?

As long as Nu trek reminds people of the original and follows some of its story line, they'll usually keep comparing the two.
Nightdiamond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 25 2013, 01:14 AM   #158
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

I you think about it, it would have been incredibly easy not to have had Khan in the last movie at all and still have the movie be essentially the same.

John simply remains John.

No "revelation" in the brig that his real identity is Khan, lose being from the past, but keep most everything else.

Then there would have been no rip off of TWOK.

Maybe lose John's speech impediment too.

T'Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 25 2013, 01:41 AM   #159
nureintier
Commander
 
nureintier's Avatar
 
Location: PA, USA
Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post

That along with Spock being a Vulcan-what would be the point of Vulcans as being being non extremely logical and non emotional, if they show him losing his composure?
Losing his composure repeatedly. I mean, I can handle him getting upset now and then, but it seems like it's all he does.

I realize that NuSpock is not OldSpock, but again, one cannot help making comparisons, and NuSpock barely ever does anything which reminds us that he's supposed to be half Vulcan.

But yeah, I'd rather have had the same movie, without John being revealed to be Khan.

Also, I don't think anyone was saying they don't expect Spock to give a damn AT ALL that Kirk died, but rather, that the scene in TWOK has more impact because of the history.

Last edited by nureintier; November 25 2013 at 01:55 AM.
nureintier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 25 2013, 01:47 AM   #160
JarodRussell
Vice Admiral
 
JarodRussell's Avatar
 
Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

nureintier wrote: View Post
Nightdiamond wrote: View Post

That along with Spock being a Vulcan-what would be the point of Vulcans as being being non extremely logical and non emotional, if they show him losing his composure?
Losing his composure repeatedly. I mean, I can handle him getting upset now and then, but it seems like it's all he does.

I realize that NuSpock is not OldSpock, but again, one cannot help making comparisons, and NuSpock barely ever does anything which reminds us that he's supposed to be half Vulcan.

But yeah, I'd rather have had the same movie, without John being revealed to be Khan.
The guy that beat up Khan out of anger on the Coruscant floating thingy, is the very same guy that beat up Kirk out of anger on the bridge, is the very same child that beat up the other kids out of anger in the Vulcan school thingy. nuSpock has absolutely no character development, and the writers seem to be proud of that.

Expect yet another scene where nuSpock beats someone up and has to be stopped in the third film.
JarodRussell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 25 2013, 04:37 AM   #161
plynch
Commodore
 
plynch's Avatar
 
Location: Outer Graceland
View plynch's Twitter Profile
Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

There is such humanity in TWOK, what with Kirk's aging, the loss of our dear friend and hero, Spock, Kirk's having a son, death and rebirth, wonder. All executed so well, with good acting, plus Montalban chewing the scenery. STID is shallow lollapalooza, the kids are in charge, both in universe and out. I just cannot fathom how someone can appreciate STID more. (My shortcoming, I guess. I also can't understand how people get off on Mozart or those ridiculous LOTR movies compared to the charming books. I guess I need some IDIC lessons.)

I digress. Badly. To return to the movies at hand: As someone noted above, just compare the direction (I would add music) of the two death scenes.

Not looking for an argument. But in its mind-bogglingness to me,
it's as if someone said they thought a Ziggy cartoon was truly better art than the Mona Lisa or something.

Like what you like, though.
__________________
Author of Live Like Louis! Inspirational Stories from the Life of Louis Armstrong, http://livelikelouis.com
plynch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 25 2013, 09:34 AM   #162
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England again
Re: T.W.O.K vs STID


__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 25 2013, 09:58 AM   #163
Search4
Commander
 
Search4's Avatar
 
Location: New Jersey, USA
Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

To add my 2 cents: Kirk has just had two crewmen who Khan had under his control. I always thought he over-acted the scream in case they were STILL under Khan's control. Didn't want to tip the plan to the people in the cave who might still be working for Khan.
Search4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 25 2013, 12:57 PM   #164
Nightdiamond
Fleet Captain
 
Nightdiamond's Avatar
 
Location: California
Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

nureintier wrote: View Post
Losing his composure repeatedly. I mean, I can handle him getting upset now and then, but it seems like it's all he does.

I realize that NuSpock is not OldSpock, but again, one cannot help making comparisons, and NuSpock barely ever does anything which reminds us that he's supposed to be half Vulcan.

Also, I don't think anyone was saying they don't expect Spock to give a damn AT ALL that Kirk died, but rather, that the scene in TWOK has more impact because of the history.
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
The guy that beat up Khan out of anger on the Coruscant floating thingy, is the very same guy that beat up Kirk out of anger on the bridge, is the very same child that beat up the other kids out of anger in the Vulcan school thingy. nuSpock has absolutely no character development, and the writers seem to be proud of that.

Expect yet another scene where nuSpock beats someone up and has to be stopped in the third film.
This is what I figured some fans are going to notice.

The concept about Vulcans is that they don't express emotions. They're devoted to logic.

They only do it in very rare instances or because of some odd situation like a disease.

So when we see Spock going into violent rages a number of times, people who know the series are bound to have that type of reaction.

Trying to have an open mind about those rages isn't going to cut it if they know about the basic concept of Vulcans established already.

It's as if it were more intended for movie goers who don't know much about Vulcans.

The thing is, Zachary Quinto does a perfect Spock --he nailed it -it's just the odd character behavior that may put some fans off.

Last edited by Nightdiamond; November 25 2013 at 01:07 PM.
Nightdiamond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 25 2013, 01:24 PM   #165
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England again
Re: T.W.O.K vs STID

Vulcans aspire to a state where they express no emotions. As we've seen as far back as TOS, they don't all succeed. Even Tuvok, the most 'Vulcan' of continuing Vulcan characters, had a troubled past where he failed to meet the ideal.

It's fans' incorrect preconceptions that are at fault.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:00 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.