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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old November 23 2013, 02:21 AM   #76
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

teacake wrote: View Post
He is taking away Kirk's control.
Indeed.


Saito S wrote: View Post
I agree with this as far as Khan goes. We are told one thing and shown another. Khan was a useless, boring mess of a villain. And Montalban's performance was so incredibly hammy that Shatner's KHAAAAAAAN may have just been to try and keep up; after all, Shat can't let anyone out-ham him in a Star Trek movie! That said, I found TWOK mediocre overall, and thought it had other flaws worthy of discussion. Kirk's inexplicable refusal to put up the shields during the Reliant's approach scene remains one of my personal all-time most notable Trek Klunker Moments.

Cumberbatch Khan was intelligent and menacing, and someone I could actually take seriously. Maybe that's partly why the STID scream works better for me. All of us, whether we want to or not, let our opinion of an overall work color our perception of how big a deal an acknowledged flaw is within said work. Two movies could have the exact same shortcomings, but if one is fun and entertaining despite them and the other is just a rotten, boring mess all around, the flaws are more glaring in the latter. So both Khan screams are pretty over the top, but one works for me partly because I find the film surrounding it to be much more entertaining overall.
That often seems to have a bit to do with it, although most people appear to like TWOK. Actually though, it's not one of my favourite Trek movies and I agree with you about the shield rasing business, but I have never had a problem with the entombment of Kirk line or the three dimentional thinking bit. Khan isn't a real starship captain or even an aircraft pilot AFAIK. It is more than conceivable he might make such mistakes. A mental block type thing.
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Old November 23 2013, 02:27 AM   #77
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

UFO wrote: View Post
CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
UFO wrote: View Post
Humans don't like forced confinement!
Was it ideal? No. But the situation was certainly not the eye for an eye scenario Khan made it out to be. The fact of the matter is, if Khan really wanted revenge, his best options was always to beam Kirk up and do whatever to him.
As per my later post, you have to understand Kirk as Khan does. He knows even a gilded cage would grind Kirk down over time. It’s insidious how evil that guy is!
Khan missed his calling,he should have been a psychologist. He only knew Kirk for a few hours.
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Old November 23 2013, 02:32 AM   #78
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

teacake wrote: View Post
My favorite Khan is Space Seed.
Me too. It wasn't a big action episode, but the dialog was smart and crisp, and I liked the Kirk and Khan scenes.

I know conflicts prevented Shatner and Montalban from ever being able to be at a shooting on the same day, but in my opinion, TWOK suffered from Kirk and Khan never meeting face to face. Most of their dialog was also simply Khan threatening Kirk and Kirk tweaking or taunting Khan.
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Old November 23 2013, 02:37 AM   #79
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

Franklin wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
My favorite Khan is Space Seed.
Me too. It wasn't a big action episode, but the dialog was smart and crisp, and I liked the Kirk and Khan scenes.

I know conflicts prevented Shatner and Montalban from ever being able to be at a shooting on the same day, but in my opinion, TWOK suffered from Kirk and Khan never meeting face to face. Most of their dialog was also simply Khan threatening Kirk and Kirk tweaking or taunting Khan.
Yeppers. Of the three, Space Seed is the superior production. You could have put a new villain into either of the movies and told the same story.

STID didn't need to make Harrison Khan. They had an interesting, engaging, villain that would have served the story as well, if not better. I think making Harrison Khan tied their hands to some of the story telling potentials they might have otherwise had.
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Old November 23 2013, 02:41 AM   #80
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

Well, if you don't want ham, you surely don't want Montalban's Khan. That's for damn sure. If his being an ancient exotic tyrant or an analogue of Captain Ahab doesn't work for you either, hey, different strokes.

For my money:

Saito S wrote: View Post
Cumberbatch Khan was intelligent and menacing, and someone I could actually take seriously.
Loading one's own crew into explosive torpedoes doesn't actually sell a villain as being more intelligent and menacing than Montalban's Khan for me. And the parts of Cumberbatch's performance where he's selling us on his being Khan were like mainlining concentrated ham extract for me. Cumberbatch's villain is otherwise not bad, but not a huge standout from the Die Hard villain mould; I think there's a reason that we have a scene with Spock calling Spock so that Spock can explain to Spock why Khan is a guy to be feared.

I found TWOK mediocre overall, and thought it had other flaws worthy of discussion. Kirk's inexplicable refusal to put up the shields during the Reliant's approach scene remains one of my personal all-time most notable Trek Klunker Moments.
Calling it "inexplicable" seems like reaching to me, just as with "why didn't Khan beam him up from Regula One"? It's a bad call, obviously, but hardly an "inexplicable" one, especially from Kirk who's been accustomed to finessing regulations in favour of his own judgment for most of his career, and in fact has no reason to expect an attack from a ship of his own fleet.
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Old November 23 2013, 02:48 AM   #81
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
UFO wrote:
As per my later post, you have to understand Kirk as Khan does. He knows even a gilded cage would grind Kirk down over time. It’s insidious how evil that guy is!
Khan missed his calling,he should have been a psychologist. He only knew Kirk for a few hours.
Well Khan isn't supposed to be stupid and he would have to be a good judge of character as a sucessful err, "politian", but it really isn't that hard to pick that the type of person who captains a Starship exploring unknown worlds would not be happy being imprisioned in any way much less what was on offer. That's why the line works so well imo.
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Old November 23 2013, 03:09 AM   #82
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

Montalban's delivery is what sells it. I like to quote it, often for no apparent reason.
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Old November 23 2013, 03:11 AM   #83
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
My favorite Khan is Space Seed.
Me too. It wasn't a big action episode, but the dialog was smart and crisp, and I liked the Kirk and Khan scenes.

I know conflicts prevented Shatner and Montalban from ever being able to be at a shooting on the same day, but in my opinion, TWOK suffered from Kirk and Khan never meeting face to face. Most of their dialog was also simply Khan threatening Kirk and Kirk tweaking or taunting Khan.
Yeppers. Of the three, Space Seed is the superior production. You could have put a new villain into either of the movies and told the same story.

STID didn't need to make Harrison Khan. They had an interesting, engaging, villain that would have served the story as well, if not better. I think making Harrison Khan tied their hands to some of the story telling potentials they might have otherwise had.
I didn't mind him being Khan, but I wouldn't have run out of the theater demanding a refund if he wasn't.

I think a lot of the opinions about the episode and both movies with Khan depend on whether or not one drags baggage from one into the other. Khan is different in all three because he's facing different situations. Which is the real Khan? Well, all three are in total. Which is the better Khan? That's a question of personal taste.

Spock's shout in the context of the STID story is perfect, in my opinion. It's appropriateness is debatable only in the context deliberately comparing it to Kirk's shout.

Did the writers invite that comparison? Certainly. But it was an original use of the shout. They recreated nothing, I don't see it as an homage, and so to me, the shout stands as independent event. Still, if it broke the moment for some in the audience, even those being thoroughly entertained to that point, I can see that. But my question would be, if the shout in TWOK never made it to the screen, would the reaction to Spock's shout in STID still be so negative or jarring?
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Old November 23 2013, 04:00 AM   #84
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

UFO wrote: View Post
CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
UFO wrote: View Post
Humans don't like forced confinement!
Was it ideal? No. But the situation was certainly not the eye for an eye scenario Khan made it out to be. The fact of the matter is, if Khan really wanted revenge, his best options was always to beam Kirk up and do whatever to him.
As per my later post, you have to understand Kirk as Khan does. He knows even a gilded cage would grind Kirk down over time. It’s insidious how evil that guy is!
Add to this that Khan thought he was stranding Kirk in the center of a dead planet. Emphasis on dead. He hadn't been to the Genesis Cave. Khan's men never got any further than the station. He didn't know there was a natural paradise waiting for Kirk's landing party. He'd have been as amazed as Kirk was at what they found there.
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Old November 23 2013, 01:39 PM   #85
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

Spock's "Khaaaaan!" was pretty bad, but it's not so out-of-character as some think. Spock screamed wordlessly before attacking the Vulcan bully and later Kirk in the '09 movie. Since Khan was out of punching range at the time, he screamed his name (and then got into punching range ASAP)

Ultimately, the writers put it in as a fanwank too far. It reminded me of the overuse of "Kneel before Zod!" in Smallville (something I was glad they kept out of Man of Steel)
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Old November 23 2013, 01:57 PM   #86
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

Psion wrote: View Post
Add to this that Khan thought he was stranding Kirk in the center of a dead planet. Emphasis on dead. He hadn't been to the Genesis Cave. Khan's men never got any further than the station. He didn't know there was a natural paradise waiting for Kirk's landing party. He'd have been as amazed as Kirk was at what they found there.
But if he scanned the planet to locate the Genesis Device, wouldn't he have noticed all the flora down inside a dead world? Any other time, sensors can locate a pimple on an ant's ass but here completely miss a giant cave full of plant life and water?

It really is no more complicated than they wrote themselves into a corner so they changed Khan's motivation. It works because Shatner and Montalban chew enough scenery that you get lost in the performances.
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Old November 23 2013, 03:37 PM   #87
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

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It really is no more complicated than they wrote themselves into a corner so they changed Khan's motivation. It works because Shatner and Montalban chew enough scenery that you get lost in the performances.
You, sir, above all of us, have finally had the courage to say the truth. You've said that which some of us have only allowed ourselves to think. I take my hat off to you. My finest meats and cheeses are yours for the taking.

The story requires Khan scanning the area and beaming up Kirk, not Genesis. But that won't work. It's end of story if that happens. What happened instead would be like Captain Ahab finally having Moby Dick in his sites for the kill and then saying, "Look! Over there! A school of red snapper. I'm hungry and I love red snapper. Helm, hard to port. Nets in the water, men. We eat, tonight!"

Of course, Khan's motivation conveniently changed back to being target fixated on Kirk after he found out Kirk "escaped." Joachim should've led a mutiny. Khan had Genesis. That was a game changer. Khan could've had anything he wanted with Genesis as a bargaining chip, including Kirk. If Khan had become crazed enough not to see that, and still wanted Kirk worse at that point, he still could've said, "Kirk I offer you a trade. Genesis for you." How could Kirk refuse? Superior intellect my ass.
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Old November 23 2013, 06:35 PM   #88
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

One of the things that stuck out at me was the lack of "superior ambition" among Khan's people. They have a super-weapon, a WMD, now. Joachim calls him down on chasing Kirk, but why didn't he try to take Khan out and become the leader?
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Old November 23 2013, 06:45 PM   #89
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

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One of the things that stuck out at me was the lack of "superior ambition" among Khan's people. They have a super-weapon, a WMD, now. Joachim calls him down on chasing Kirk, but why didn't he try to take Khan out and become the leader?
Judson Scott, who played Joachim, was 30 in 1982. That means he's either playing someone much older who aged very well, or that he (and some of the others on the Reliant who looked equally as young) were teenagers in 1996 when they were frozen and went into space.

It could be that Khan was a father-like figure to the younger ones, and so their ambitions were tempered in deference to Khan. After all, if they were nothing but teenagers when Ceti Alpha VI went haywire, they owe at least their initial survival and further education to Khan's abilities.
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Old November 23 2013, 07:20 PM   #90
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
One of the things that stuck out at me was the lack of "superior ambition" among Khan's people. They have a super-weapon, a WMD, now. Joachim calls him down on chasing Kirk, but why didn't he try to take Khan out and become the leader?
Khan had the ability to inspire actual loyalty in his people, as we see also in "Space Seed." Presumably because they believed as he did that he was the best of them (his having successfully kept them alive after the unexpected cataclysm on Ceti Alpha V would have reinforced that aura of superiority). That Joachim wanted to restore him to rationality didn't mean his loyalty had lessened.

Also note that even through his mania Khan retains a parallel fixation on Genesis once he's learned of its existence? He would have learned from Chekov and Tyrell that it was more than a "superweapon," it could also provide his people with a new planet. I always took this to mean that even at his maddest, some part of him was still thinking like a prince. It was not so hard to see why his people remained loyal.

(Incidentally, it's instructive to watch TWOK having read Moby Dick. The Trek film is nowhere near Melville's league artistically, but it makes it easier to see what kind of character they were aiming for in their version of Khan once you know the original Ahab. Also Moby Dick is just a really good adventure novel.)
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