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Old November 22 2013, 11:28 AM   #16
teacake
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Re: Was Janeway a hypocrite in Equinox?

So you're saying she needed to force people to bend to her community?
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Old November 22 2013, 06:04 PM   #17
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Re: Was Janeway a hypocrite in Equinox?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Janeway is ignorant that Equinox is tactically superior.

And Ransom chooses not to correct her.

When the vivisection drive is working, Equinoxes top speed is a hundred times greater than Voyagers.

I don't care if Voyager's Phaser array is twice the size of Equinoxes, once Equinox has it's gas tank filled up, Equinox would be half way home before Janeway could even lock on her phasers.
So? Tactically superior means which ship will win in a head-to-head fight. Since ships don't fight at warp, the Equinox's greater speed is irrelevant. It's a perfectly sensible rule.



teacake wrote: View Post
So you're saying she needed to force people to bend to her community?
Remember that one time she offered to let whoever wanted out stay behind and colonize that one planet? And I imagine anyone who requested to settle down with any of the friendly societies along the way would probably be allowed to, also. As for non-working passengers home... that could have been an interesting subplot somewhere; so long as they stuck to their quarters and didn't get in the way, I doubt they'd be forced to work, but who'd want that, and the resentment of all their fellow crew?
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Old November 22 2013, 07:59 PM   #18
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Re: Was Janeway a hypocrite in Equinox?

Tactically superior does not only mean firepower. It means whatever it takes to win. Neither ship had the fire power to fight these space dolphins head on. It's just a question of if no matter how fast Equinox ran they followed, or if Ransom was going in circles fishing in a fishing ground until he had enough fish to get all the way home.

(DOLPHINS ARE NOT FISH!)

(Shut up.)

There was an episode of TOS where a Starbase Commander takes over Enterprise and fails to out gun the bad guys, and then begins to issue his Surrender, which is when Kirk takes back command and tells the pilot to go to warp 8.

Running away is another word for winning.
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Old November 22 2013, 08:57 PM   #19
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Re: Was Janeway a hypocrite in Equinox?

Running away is retreating, how many battles/wars were won by the side which always retreated?

Sure you can retreat, but a retreat is only usually temporary until you can gain tacical superiroty over the enemy, once you believe you have tactical superiory you attack.
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Old November 22 2013, 09:08 PM   #20
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Re: Was Janeway a hypocrite in Equinox?

Running away is retreating, how many battles/wars where won by the side which always retreated?

Have you ever heard of a Pyrrhic Victory?

...

Surviving = Winning.

Doomed suicidal assault = Losing.

Retreat is not a bad thing most of the time.

Sure if you're on home soil and you're the line between assholes and innocent civilians, retreat can seem bad, but even then, win the war not the battle.

I really don't think that Ransom tried running away because he still needed another 56 space Dolphins to make it all the whole way home.

Could the Dolphins have made it back to/found Earth, or got back to Earth in less than 40 years?
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Old November 23 2013, 01:26 AM   #21
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Re: Was Janeway a hypocrite in Equinox?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Friends?

They were her subordinates.

Their fair comeuppence started off with being her nicely treated crew, to being slave labour a couple inches form being lodged into a stasis tube for the next 50 years.

By the way, it wasn't that Sisko did a bad thing, it's that he owned it. He did a bad thing he could live with. Janeway never did a bad thing and never had to worry about repentance or redemption because no matter what she did, how ####ed up she got, by the end credits or the next episode, everything morally ambiguous was upside down and back to front until she was lily white because her soul was made of teflon.
Pay attention, I put the word friends in quotes for a reason.
We all know they were subordinates.
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Old November 23 2013, 01:29 AM   #22
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Re: Was Janeway a hypocrite in Equinox?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Running away is retreating, how many battles/wars were won by the side which always retreated?
Helped us win our independence from Britain.
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Old November 23 2013, 02:51 AM   #23
Anwar
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Re: Was Janeway a hypocrite in Equinox?

The Overlord wrote: View Post
JanewayRulz! wrote: View Post
Just a suggestion, but you might want to distill the salient points of your part 2 and part 3 SF debris vids into a paragraph or 2 if you'd like to start a discussion. I'm not ready to sit through 33 minutes of commentary, especially one that begins with season 2's "Alliances".

As for your question "was she a hypocrite?" I'd say no.

Janeway and her crew were never rescued by a fellow Federation crew with a superior/intact ship at the risk of their own lives. She/her crew never repaid that rescue by stealing their Federation brethren's shield generator and purposely leaving them to the mercy of aliens intent on exacting murderous revenge upon "humans" for heinous crimes committed by Voyager.

Ransom committed the worst crime he could have done in Janeway's eyes.

He sacrificed HER ship & crew not for food or survival but just so he could run away home.

Imagine the fireworks going off if Equinox arrived on Earth "three months later", hailed as heroes when in reality they were the "24th century's version of the Donner party". A group ready to eat their own, NOT so they could survive, but merely so they could get home a little faster.
Janeway helped the Borg defeated Species 8472 which led to the Borg assimilating other species in the DQ and as it turned out in "In The Flesh" 8472 was the lesser of the two evils. So Janeway helped the Borg survive a war the Borg themselves started and then Borg went around destroying more civilizations in the DQ, it seems like Janeway has more blood her hands then Ransom does.
The Borg were not the lesser of the two evils, the 8472 were still worse. They were going to commit xenocide, and had the power to do so. The Borg do not have the power to do so, otherwise they'd have assimilated the Galaxy by now.

If she'd done nothing, the 8472 aliens would've just killed everyone else once they were finished with the Borg and the means to now kill the 8472 would now be gone so they couldn't make the nanite weapon.

The 8472 can make up all the excuses they want, but they were the worse ones who only were forced to the table unwillingly. The Borg are way more stoppable than them.

And of course, if Q had popped up after "Scorpion" and said "You save the Universe from total annihilation, kudos." no one would be complaining.
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Old November 23 2013, 07:30 AM   #24
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Re: Was Janeway a hypocrite in Equinox?

Anwar wrote: View Post
The Overlord wrote: View Post
JanewayRulz! wrote: View Post
Just a suggestion, but you might want to distill the salient points of your part 2 and part 3 SF debris vids into a paragraph or 2 if you'd like to start a discussion. I'm not ready to sit through 33 minutes of commentary, especially one that begins with season 2's "Alliances".

As for your question "was she a hypocrite?" I'd say no.

Janeway and her crew were never rescued by a fellow Federation crew with a superior/intact ship at the risk of their own lives. She/her crew never repaid that rescue by stealing their Federation brethren's shield generator and purposely leaving them to the mercy of aliens intent on exacting murderous revenge upon "humans" for heinous crimes committed by Voyager.

Ransom committed the worst crime he could have done in Janeway's eyes.

He sacrificed HER ship & crew not for food or survival but just so he could run away home.

Imagine the fireworks going off if Equinox arrived on Earth "three months later", hailed as heroes when in reality they were the "24th century's version of the Donner party". A group ready to eat their own, NOT so they could survive, but merely so they could get home a little faster.
Janeway helped the Borg defeated Species 8472 which led to the Borg assimilating other species in the DQ and as it turned out in "In The Flesh" 8472 was the lesser of the two evils. So Janeway helped the Borg survive a war the Borg themselves started and then Borg went around destroying more civilizations in the DQ, it seems like Janeway has more blood her hands then Ransom does.
The Borg were not the lesser of the two evils, the 8472 were still worse. They were going to commit xenocide, and had the power to do so. The Borg do not have the power to do so, otherwise they'd have assimilated the Galaxy by now.

If she'd done nothing, the 8472 aliens would've just killed everyone else once they were finished with the Borg and the means to now kill the 8472 would now be gone so they couldn't make the nanite weapon.

The 8472 can make up all the excuses they want, but they were the worse ones who only were forced to the table unwillingly. The Borg are way more stoppable than them.

And of course, if Q had popped up after "Scorpion" and said "You save the Universe from total annihilation, kudos." no one would be complaining.
Except in "In The Flesh" Species 8472 claimed they were acting in self defense and were not planning to destroy all other life in the galaxy.

There is a serve disconnect between Scorpion and In The Flesh and if the events of In The Flesh are correct, Janeway did something worse then Captain Ransom ever did.

So either Species 8472 wasn't interested in killing all other life in the universe, but sent messages saying they were, which would be really stupid, Kes was idiot who misread their messages or Species 8472 were planning on destroying the universe, but were wimps who talked a good game, but when Voyager gave them a bloody nose, they turned into total wimps and changed their story.

None of these options reflect well on the writers, two of them make Janeway look really bad and the third one undermines the tension from the Scorpion.

Imagine if the Daleks give up on killing all other forms of life, after the Doctor managed to kill a few of them, they would not be very threatening or manage to become the iconic villains they are.
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Old November 23 2013, 07:49 AM   #25
Anwar
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Re: Was Janeway a hypocrite in Equinox?

The Overlord wrote: View Post
or Species 8472 were planning on destroying the universe, but were wimps who talked a good game, but when Voyager gave them a bloody nose, they turned into total wimps and changed their story.
That's basically it.

None of these options reflect well on the writers, two of them make Janeway look really bad and the third one undermines the tension from the Scorpion.
They wanted to wrap up the 8472 thing in a permanent manner, and didn't want to do a big stupid 200 part war story.

Imagine if the Daleks give up on killing all other forms of life, after the Doctor managed to kill a few of them, they would not be very threatening or manage to become the iconic villains they are.
The Daleks were never stupidly overpowered in the first place, since the Doctor nearly always manages to beat them on his own. They were never introduced as some super-enemy, they became that over decades of stories.

You want to create an iconic villain that can be repeatedly used over and over, you don't make them stupidly overpowered to begin with.
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Old November 23 2013, 08:07 AM   #26
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Re: Was Janeway a hypocrite in Equinox?

Anwar wrote: View Post
The Overlord wrote: View Post
or Species 8472 were planning on destroying the universe, but were wimps who talked a good game, but when Voyager gave them a bloody nose, they turned into total wimps and changed their story.
That's basically it.
1. That is really weak. It turns a scary enemy into total wimps. If they are going to space Nazis, they have to tougher then that. The Nazis did not quit after giving them a bloody nose.

2. That is not made very clear, to the point that I could easily believe the other two theories are just valid. Really Species 8472's story arc was not handled very well and because of that, it is easy to believe Janeway picked the wrong side and Species 8472 were not as bad first appeared.

Anwar wrote: View Post
None of these options reflect well on the writers, two of them make Janeway look really bad and the third one undermines the tension from the Scorpion.
They wanted to wrap up the 8472 thing in a permanent manner, and didn't want to do a big stupid 200 part war story.
Or they could have not had them appear after Scorpion, if they were going to become total wimps and just flat contradict Scorpion. That was a bad and unneeded conclusion, I rather not have seen ever again then have that wrap up.

Besides ongoing story with Species 8472 might have been better then a lot of the bad episodes we got instead, I think I would have preferred that to Unimatrix Zero.

Anwar wrote: View Post
Imagine if the Daleks give up on killing all other forms of life, after the Doctor managed to kill a few of them, they would not be very threatening or manage to become the iconic villains they are.
The Daleks were never stupidly overpowered in the first place, since the Doctor nearly always manages to beat them on his own. They were never introduced as some super-enemy, they became that over decades of stories.

You want to create an iconic villain that can be repeatedly used over and over, you don't make them stupidly overpowered to begin with.
The Daleks are still pretty powerful, they did manage to wipe out the time lords in the time war. Really the Daleks were better realized villains, because the writers didn't try to ret con them into something total different by their fourth appearance.
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Old November 23 2013, 08:11 AM   #27
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Re: Was Janeway a hypocrite in Equinox?

In their second story they had conquered the Earth, ruled it viciously for a decade and burrowed all the way to the centre of the planet to insert a gyroscope and turn our homeworld into a mobile battlestation.

"Meh."

The Daleks spent thousands of years in a stalemate looking for the perfectly logical opening move against the Movellian fleet. Seriously, battle computer vs battle computer out predicting each others gambits unwilling to commit resources to a shitty first move.



You have to admit that that is similar to running away at first blood.
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Old November 23 2013, 05:15 PM   #28
Anwar
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Re: Was Janeway a hypocrite in Equinox?

The Overlord wrote: View Post

1. That is really weak. It turns a scary enemy into total wimps. If they are going to space Nazis, they have to tougher then that. The Nazis did not quit after giving them a bloody nose.
Voyager didn't have the cannon fodder needed to maintain an enemy like that.

Doesn't help that the Borg (the other half of the conflict) are too boring to use as an enemy themselves.

Or they could have not had them appear after Scorpion, if they were going to become total wimps and just flat contradict Scorpion. That was a bad and unneeded conclusion, I rather not have seen ever again then have that wrap up.
That's too open-ended. They wanted them gone in a final manner, and didn't want to tell a big stupid 200 part story to do so.

Besides ongoing story with Species 8472 might have been better then a lot of the bad episodes we got instead, I think I would have preferred that to Unimatrix Zero.
You can't telling ongoing stories with an enemy that stupidly overpowered, you tell ongoing stories about enemies that are at your own power level or lower.

The Daleks are still pretty powerful, they did manage to wipe out the time lords in the time war. Really the Daleks were better realized villains, because the writers didn't try to ret con them into something total different by their fourth appearance.
The Daleks were just a normal enemy of the Doctors for like 20 years before they started treating them like some big threat to the Time Lords.

For all their early appearances, they were NOT some big threat the Doctor felt he should be afraid of, they were just some normal enemy. Doctor Who's time-travel story aspect meant they could also tell stories of the Daleks' at various points of their strength and not have to bother with a linear story.

For crying out loud, in the 80s (even after the Daleks were some big threat) we saw them getting killed by a teenager with a baseball bat.
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Old November 23 2013, 05:48 PM   #29
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Re: Was Janeway a hypocrite in Equinox?

To be fair, Ace's bat had been tinkered with to make it more destructive. I forget the specific details.
It kind of annoys me how the Daleks got such a huge boost in their threat level. Since they're the most popular monster in the series, they apparently have to be the most dangerous, even if it goes against what was going on in the original series. It would've been so much more interesting if the Time War had been a civil war, being fought by Gallifrey against itself from two different points in time.
But as to Voyager, one of the things I really like about Voyager is how they are on their own, there's no chance for backup in a strange quadrant. Everything is harder, the stakes are higher, and the choices Janeway had to make were harder, and the writers didn't go easy on her, she frequently had to make really difficult moral decisions, like with Tuvix. At times there was no good choice, just a choice between two bad options.
I was disappointed that the surviving Equinox crew never got used again. Seems like a wasted opprotunity to me.
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Old November 23 2013, 09:08 PM   #30
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Re: Was Janeway a hypocrite in Equinox?

The Hand a Omega, a stellar manipulator, that casket the first Doctor Burried in 1963 and then 7 dug it up to destroy Skaro... It had the AI of a clever Dog obeying instructions to follow, upgrade or exterminate.

I don't think that it's a single serving weapon of mass destruction.

7 could have exploded a great number of stars.

In a recent audio story 7 said that he's seen the future, and his next incarnation is such a nancy pants wofter boy milk sop that there is no way that junior can survive in the universe as it stands until after Seven has finished babyproofing it for the 8th Doctor.

Sylvestor McCoy has taken this to hearts with an evil glint in his eye and repeated the sentiment verbatim in a behind the scenes post show interview as the gods own blessed incontrovertable truth which he beleives in.
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