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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old November 23 2013, 01:19 AM   #61
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
I always thought that was really quite obvious in TWOK, I'm surprised to see so many people are confused about it.
It's not that it isn't obvious, it's that it just doesn't work. Being left to spend your retirement years in paradise with your family and best friend isn't exactly "punishment."
Have you learned nothing from The Menagerie part 2? Humans don't like forced confinement!


SeerSGB wrote: View Post
I thought both of the screams were silly. Shatner's was just scene chewing, and I can't watch it without either laughing or rolling my eyes. Quinto just didn't sell it. It's an over the top moment (good or bad), ya' got gnaw on the scenery and blow out a lung; he just didn't throw himself into it.
Maybe that's because such screams are silly and don't normally happen in those situations?
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Old November 23 2013, 01:20 AM   #62
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

BigJake wrote: View Post
Far as Khan's concerned he's entombing Kirk in a few small chambers "in the center of a dead planet."
Fine. But for that to be the case, Khan must be ignorant of the situation which conflicts with his characterization. In that case, it still doesn't work.

Either Khan has read up and Genesis and knows who the Doctors Marcus are, or he's not the superior intellect and just mucking about.
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Old November 23 2013, 01:23 AM   #63
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
Far as Khan's concerned he's entombing Kirk in a few small chambers "in the center of a dead planet."
Fine. But for that to be the case, Khan must be ignorant of the situation which conflicts with his characterization. In that case, it still doesn't work.

Either Khan has read up and Genesis and knows who the Doctors Marcus are, or he's not the superior intellect and just mucking about.
The whole movie is predicated on Khan being an idiot. "Three dimensional thinking" my ass. Maybe the reason is fled Earth is cause he was a terrible military leader and got his ass handed to him by drones and subs.
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Old November 23 2013, 01:27 AM   #64
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
The whole movie is predicated on Khan being an idiot. "Three dimensional thinking" my ass. Maybe the reason is fled Earth is cause he was a terrible military leader and got his ass handed to him by drones and subs.
No, he knows Kirk isn't a family man and he knows he's an adventurer who would hate being confined with past "mistakes" however much he might want to get to know his son.
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Old November 23 2013, 01:31 AM   #65
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

UFO wrote: View Post
Humans don't like forced confinement!
Was it ideal? No. But the situation was certainly not the eye for an eye scenario Khan made it out to be. The fact of the matter is, if Khan really wanted revenge, his best options was always to beam Kirk up and do whatever to him.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
The whole movie is predicated on Khan being an idiot. "Three dimensional thinking" my ass. Maybe the reason is fled Earth is cause he was a terrible military leader and got his ass handed to him by drones and subs.
Yup. Stupid Khan is ultimately TWOK's biggest flaw. Meyer constantly tells us one thing and shows us just the opposite. As far as I'm concerned, it is the single reason (all the other nitpicks are pretty ignorable) it's just a really good sci-fi movie instead of being an all-time classic film.
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Old November 23 2013, 01:32 AM   #66
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

Sindatur wrote: View Post
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People do realize the reason Shatner's "Khan!" scream is remembered is because most people think it's funny. Seriously, how much mileage have comedians and sitcoms gotten out of it in the last thirty years?

Most people don't consider it some dramatic moment that rivals the best other movies have to offer. It's remembered because Shatner is a ham and the scream was right up his alley.
Exactly. If you go back to before STiD premiered, you can find post after post making fun of how cheezy and ridiculous (and embarrassing) Shatner's Khan scream was. It was a trope, whenever someone wanted to look silly (or have a reaction to indicate someone else's post was ridiculous), they would post a Youtube video of Shatner's Khan scream

It wasn't until after the movie premiŤred that all of a sudden Shatner's Khan scream was considered sacred ground and Dramatic Theatrical Excellence.
For me Shatner's Khan scream was always partially Theatrical Excellence. I did not like his facial expressions much before the scream but I loved the sound of his voice when he screamed khan. Quinto was kind of meh.
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Old November 23 2013, 01:34 AM   #67
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
Far as Khan's concerned he's entombing Kirk in a few small chambers "in the center of a dead planet."
Fine. But for that to be the case, Khan must be ignorant of the situation which conflicts with his characterization.
"He is intelligent. But not experienced." And also in the throes of derangement. YMMV, for my money I don't find his missteps are at odds with his characterization.

SeerGSB wrote:
The whole movie is predicated on Khan being an idiot. "Three dimensional thinking" my ass.
In retrospect this is awful. But it's a function of Trek's concept of space battle being a bit primitive, not Khan's being an idiot per se. The show had never actually made explicit use of the fabled Third Dimension in combat before.
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Old November 23 2013, 01:41 AM   #68
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

Wait, why was he in the throes of derangement?
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Old November 23 2013, 01:46 AM   #69
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
UFO wrote: View Post
Humans don't like forced confinement!
Was it ideal? No. But the situation was certainly not the eye for an eye scenario Khan made it out to be. The fact of the matter is, if Khan really wanted revenge, his best options was always to beam Kirk up and do whatever to him.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
The whole movie is predicated on Khan being an idiot. "Three dimensional thinking" my ass. Maybe the reason is fled Earth is cause he was a terrible military leader and got his ass handed to him by drones and subs.
Yup. Stupid Khan is ultimately TWOK's biggest flaw. Meyer constantly tells us one thing and shows us just the opposite. As far as I'm concerned, it is the single reason (all the other nitpicks are pretty ignorable) it's just a really good sci-fi movie instead of being an all-time classic film.
For a popcorn film and getting to see some truly great model work, and getting to see the refit Enterprise kick some ass, TWOK is a good movie. But any deeper meaning than that, and you bide as well riff the hell out of it. It's not a movie that holds up well to critical thought--which is an issue with ALL of the Trek movies, even the new ones.
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Old November 23 2013, 01:46 AM   #70
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

teacake wrote: View Post
Wait, why was he in the throes of derangement?
Stranded on a wasteland planet for fifteen years, watched his wife and many of his people die, wasn't exactly the model of mental stability to begin with.
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Old November 23 2013, 01:46 AM   #71
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
UFO wrote: View Post
Humans don't like forced confinement!
Was it ideal? No. But the situation was certainly not the eye for an eye scenario Khan made it out to be. The fact of the matter is, if Khan really wanted revenge, his best options was always to beam Kirk up and do whatever to him.
As per my later post, you have to understand Kirk as Khan does. He knows even a gilded cage would grind Kirk down over time. Itís insidious how evil that guy is!
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Old November 23 2013, 01:53 AM   #72
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

BigJake wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
Wait, why was he in the throes of derangement?
Stranded on a wasteland planet for fifteen years, watched his wife and many of his people die, wasn't exactly the model of mental stability to begin with.
Oh right.. I guess I would have used a different word. But yeah he's been nursing his hatred a long time. I thought maybe there were some spores I'd forgotten about
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Old November 23 2013, 01:54 AM   #73
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

UFO wrote: View Post
CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
UFO wrote: View Post
Humans don't like forced confinement!
Was it ideal? No. But the situation was certainly not the eye for an eye scenario Khan made it out to be. The fact of the matter is, if Khan really wanted revenge, his best options was always to beam Kirk up and do whatever to him.
As per my later post, you have to understand Kirk as Khan does. He knows even a gilded cage would grind Kirk down over time. Itís insidious how evil that guy is!
He is taking away Kirk's control.
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Old November 23 2013, 01:57 AM   #74
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
UFO wrote: View Post
Humans don't like forced confinement!
Was it ideal? No. But the situation was certainly not the eye for an eye scenario Khan made it out to be. The fact of the matter is, if Khan really wanted revenge, his best options was always to beam Kirk up and do whatever to him.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
The whole movie is predicated on Khan being an idiot. "Three dimensional thinking" my ass. Maybe the reason is fled Earth is cause he was a terrible military leader and got his ass handed to him by drones and subs.
Yup. Stupid Khan is ultimately TWOK's biggest flaw. Meyer constantly tells us one thing and shows us just the opposite. As far as I'm concerned, it is the single reason (all the other nitpicks are pretty ignorable) it's just a really good sci-fi movie instead of being an all-time classic film.
I agree with this as far as Khan goes. We are told one thing and shown another. Khan was a useless, boring mess of a villain. And Montalban's performance was so incredibly hammy that Shatner's KHAAAAAAAN may have just been to try and keep up; after all, Shat can't let anyone out-ham him in a Star Trek movie! That said, I found TWOK mediocre overall, and thought it had other flaws worthy of discussion. Kirk's inexplicable refusal to put up the shields during the Reliant's approach scene remains one of my personal all-time most notable Trek Klunker Moments.

Cumberbatch Khan was intelligent and menacing, and someone I could actually take seriously. Maybe that's partly why the STID scream works better for me. All of us, whether we want to or not, let our opinion of an overall work color our perception of how big a deal an acknowledged flaw is within said work. Two movies could have the exact same shortcomings, but if one is fun and entertaining despite them and the other is just a rotten, boring mess all around, the flaws are more glaring in the latter. So both Khan screams are pretty over the top, but one works for me partly because I find the film surrounding it to be much more entertaining overall.
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Old November 23 2013, 01:59 AM   #75
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

My favorite Khan is Space Seed.
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