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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old November 22 2013, 05:12 PM   #31
Psion
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

NewHorizon wrote: View Post
Cara007 wrote: View Post
I should also ask. What did most of you think of it. Did you like it, loathe it or love it when Spock pulled a Bill Shatner.
When I went to see STID in the theater, there were two places where literally half the audience groaned. The first was when Cumberbatch said he was "Khan" and Spock screaming was the second.

If they needed to slip Spock saying Khan in there, they should have taken the opposite direction. We've seen Spock lose his shit already, this time he should have collapsed inward and become silent, cool and focused...uttering only a whisper "khan" before bolting upward with purpose and going after him.
This. It would have been much better than Quinto parodying Shatner. It would have served to contrast the two characters over two movies and three decades. I can see Kirk sacrificing himself to save the ship -- Hell, he probably thought he'd survive just by being Kirk. But when is Spock going to be ... Spock?
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Old November 22 2013, 06:14 PM   #32
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

It worked for me, mainly because they used it to setup the even louder scream of the Vengeance plummeting out of the sky and barely missing Enterprise. My only complaint, actually, is that they should have blended them better; Quinto's "Khan" scream would be gradually drowned out by the rising sound of Vengeance's descent echoing through the hull.

Psion wrote: View Post
NewHorizon wrote: View Post
Cara007 wrote: View Post
I should also ask. What did most of you think of it. Did you like it, loathe it or love it when Spock pulled a Bill Shatner.
When I went to see STID in the theater, there were two places where literally half the audience groaned. The first was when Cumberbatch said he was "Khan" and Spock screaming was the second.

If they needed to slip Spock saying Khan in there, they should have taken the opposite direction. We've seen Spock lose his shit already, this time he should have collapsed inward and become silent, cool and focused...uttering only a whisper "khan" before bolting upward with purpose and going after him.
This. It would have been much better than Quinto parodying Shatner. It would have served to contrast the two characters over two movies and three decades. I can see Kirk sacrificing himself to save the ship -- Hell, he probably thought he'd survive just by being Kirk. But when is Spock going to be ... Spock?
The Spock we're seeing here is almost ten years younger than the TOS Spock. If you remember, he was a pretty animated fellow in The Cage.
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Old November 22 2013, 06:21 PM   #33
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
People do realize the reason Shatner's "Khan!" scream is remembered is because most people think it's funny. Seriously, how much mileage have comedians and sitcoms gotten out of it in the last thirty years?

Most people don't consider it some dramatic moment that rivals the best other movies have to offer. It's remembered because Shatner is a ham and the scream was right up his alley.
Yup, he just screams for no reason, script, plot or otherwise.
I'm of two minds on the subject of the original Kirk scream. On the one hand, years of reviewing the scene has left me a little cold, it's easy to see why people think that it's funny or pointless but, on the other, when I think back how the scene made me feel at first viewings I find it was and is still well conceived.

Kirk is reacting to Khan figuring out his plan, not taking Kirk's bait; "...if you're going to kill us you're going to have to COME DOWN HERE!" Khan then responds with "I've done more than kill you, I've hurt you, and I plan to go on - hurting you. I'll leave you as you left me, etc..." Then Kirk screams and we witness Khan having his emotional orgasm over the echos of Kirks scream. Khan won, at least for the moment.

Regarding nuSpocks scream, I liked it just fine the first time. The narrative flowed smoothly into it so I didn't feel jarred at all. I wasn't so happy with it the second time, though. Which imo demonstrates the importance of the First Viewing Experience. It worked the first time as intended so I will forever credit it a successful scene just as I do with TWoK.
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Old November 22 2013, 06:34 PM   #34
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

The Keeper wrote: View Post

Kirk is reacting to Khan figuring out his plan, not taking Kirk's bait; "...if you're going to kill us you're going to have to COME DOWN HERE!" Khan then responds with "I've done more than kill you, I've hurt you, and I plan to go on - hurting you. I'll leave you as you left me, etc..." Then Kirk screams and we witness Khan having his emotional orgasm over the echos of Kirks scream. Khan won, at least for the moment.
Emotionally, I think it is a good scene. But it really doesn't make any sense. Why would Khan have to come down to Regula to kill them? Why couldn't he beam the survivors up just like he beamed up the Genesis Device?
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Old November 22 2013, 06:56 PM   #35
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

Dammit, how dare you bring logic to the discussion. lol

My response is that Kirk was simply engaging, distracting Khan, buying time for the Enterprise to finish her repairs. As for his over the top delivery of the 'line', Kirk knew he had to make Khan believe his distress was real, which, as witnessed, he did.
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Old November 22 2013, 08:39 PM   #36
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

The Keeper wrote: View Post

My response is that Kirk was simply engaging, distracting Khan, buying time for the Enterprise to finish her repairs. As for his over the top delivery of the 'line', Kirk knew he had to make Khan believe his distress was real, which, as witnessed, he did.
Which is a great explanation.

My problem comes from the folks that act like Shatner's scream was some type of cinematic triumph that should honored with religious fervor or those who complain about having to do mental gymnastics to make Spock's work in their heads when we had to do mental gymnastics for the first one to make sense in the context of the story.

Spock has always been shown to have issues when trying to handle emotional duress. Before the Pon Farr had even gotten remotely bad he was threatening to break McCoy's neck in "Amok Time".
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Old November 22 2013, 09:26 PM   #37
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

Firstly I loved it!

The first time I saw WOK I liked that Kirk scene (still do) but as BillJ has pointed out, it can easily be broken apart and logically the whole scene doesn't make sense. And while I enjoy the scene I can still poke fun at it, and it is obvious that it has become one of if not THE biggest thing in Trek to parody.

That's part of the reason I like the NuScream so much.

That. Took. Balls.

To take something so made fun of, pair with another familiar scene from the same movie and play it dead serious?

I already knew it was coming as I read a ton of spoiler-y nerd rage filled complaints about it in advanced and I couldn't wait to see how good/terrible it would be in the context of the film.

It doesn't give me chills now, but the first time I saw it? CHILLS! Put yourself in the story, remember what Spock has gone through since childhood, to say nothing of the huge chunk of the first film and in story; they emotionally earned that.

You can of course argue the merits of using it in the first place, and ultimately I'd love to know what the exact mindset was, but either knowingly or unknowingly they did a gutsy thing with that scene.
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Old November 22 2013, 09:49 PM   #38
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
The Spock we're seeing here is almost ten years younger than the TOS Spock. If you remember, he was a pretty animated fellow in The Cage.
It never fails to amaze me each and every time someone (who knows a thing or two about Trek) uses that non-example of Spock to support their point of view. In universe it makes no sense for a young spock who has been conditioned by Vulcun emotion suppression techniques to have it all undone and more by 3-4 years at Starfleet Accademy! No wonder his father was so upset at him going there! It is probably known throughout the galaxy as a character destroying den of iniquity. Then, ten years latter, after having a change of heart, mental breakdown, really bad mind meld, too much acid etc, he decides to become the completely different character we see in (most of) TOS. Can't we just accept that the pilots didn't get Spock right?

Also, that it doesn't always make sense to view everything we see on screen as canon. My understanding is that it would never have been aired if they weren't behind schedule. If they chose to leave that bit it in, it was probably because they needed the playing time. Or they just never realised how it would be abused by fans.

The other problem is that nuSpock is nothing like that false TOS Spock anyway. NuSpock is played as a "normal Spock" who "loses it" at convenient theatrical plot points, thus "ruining" the character (Did I write that out loud? ). He has became a human with pointy ears who usually takes himself way too seriously and compensates by letting off steam occasionally. False Spock is a much more bubbly extroverted individual. Seems to me, that if people came to realise that, they would stop making these unfortunate comparisons. Or not.

BillJ wrote: View Post
My problem comes from the folks that act like Shatner's scream was some type of cinematic triumph that should honored with religious fervor or those who complain about having to do mental gymnastics to make Spock's work in their heads when we had to do mental gymnastics for the first one to make sense in the context of the story.
Then it must be great to have no problems in this regard because I can't see why it would need to worry you, even if there actually are people who "... act like Shatner's scream was some type of cinematic triumph ...". Anyhow, maybe it was, it its own way.

Moreover "the context of the story" isn't the problem with Spock's scream in STiD. The problem is that 1) Spock is doing it (You know, the Spock from The Cage, no that's not right either) and 2) it has been done before in rather similar circumstances, in a much more iconic way, that makes this version seem like crass imitation instead of paying homage or the latest easter egg hunt. Irrespective of anything else it is an ultimate "remember this?" moment. How can it not plonk you right back in your theatre seat (unless you know nothing about TWOK)?
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Old November 22 2013, 10:21 PM   #39
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

BillJ wrote: View Post
The Keeper wrote: View Post

My response is that Kirk was simply engaging, distracting Khan, buying time for the Enterprise to finish her repairs. As for his over the top delivery of the 'line', Kirk knew he had to make Khan believe his distress was real, which, as witnessed, he did.
Which is a great explanation.

My problem comes from the folks that act like Shatner's scream was some type of cinematic triumph that should honored with religious fervor or those who complain about having to do mental gymnastics to make Spock's work in their heads when we had to do mental gymnastics for the first one to make sense in the context of the story.

Spock has always been shown to have issues when trying to handle emotional duress. Before the Pon Farr had even gotten remotely bad he was threatening to break McCoy's neck in "Amok Time".
Well, revisiting and subsequently rethinking and talking about that subject here has given me a renewed sense of awe of the WoK scene, but I probably should not comment on what's going on, or not, in the heads of some folks.

But you are correct, nuSpock really isn't THAT emotionally different from his prime counterpart of around the same times. People seemed to have forgotten we once had a 7000 post thread on how Quintos Spock should be constantly shouting! They fricken nailed it!

@ Cinema Geekly.
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Old November 22 2013, 10:34 PM   #40
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

NewHorizon wrote: View Post
Cara007 wrote: View Post
I should also ask. What did most of you think of it. Did you like it, loathe it or love it when Spock pulled a Bill Shatner.
When I went to see STID in the theater, there were two places where literally half the audience groaned. The first was when Cumberbatch said he was "Khan" and Spock screaming was the second.

If they needed to slip Spock saying Khan in there, they should have taken the opposite direction. We've seen Spock lose his shit already, this time he should have collapsed inward and become silent, cool and focused...uttering only a whisper "khan" before bolting upward with purpose and going after him.
This.

The audience I saw it with groaned at those exact same moments. Wonder if we were at the same showing.

When discussing it with a buddy, I said I just couldn't take the scream seriously -- mostly because we have seen it parodied time and time again over the years -- which is why I think they did it in the first place, here.



I saw Into Darkness three times in the theater and each time, I face-palmed when Spock yelled that out. What gets me most about it is Khan isn't directly responsible for Kirk's "death." Sure he attacked and disabled the Enterprise, which caused it to fall into Earth's gravity (???), forcing him to save the ship, but it's not as if Khan locked Kirk in there to let him die.

I just want to ask some of the older folks who saw The Wrath of Khan in theaters in 1982. When Kirk originally screamed out Khan's name, were there laughs? Did you think it was funny? Campy?
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Old November 22 2013, 10:38 PM   #41
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

I was a kid when I saw TWOK in a theater. I don't remember anybody laughing and I took it seriously, as I did Spock's version.
Maybe I take things too seriously, but I was absorbed by the story, not giving the meta aspects any thought.
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Old November 22 2013, 10:48 PM   #42
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

It's that time again!




The scream was completely out of place.
I doubt it would have been better had he just screamed and thrown stuff through the room. Nobody reacts to a death like that.
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Old November 22 2013, 10:59 PM   #43
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

BillJ wrote: View Post
Spock has always been shown to have issues when trying to handle emotional duress. Before the Pon Farr had even gotten remotely bad he was threatening to break McCoy's neck in "Amok Time".
It seems to me the example you give of Spock "always" having "issues when trying to handle emotional duress ..." is actually a case of massive chemical imbalance. Ie. nothing to do with "emotional duress" from a causative point of view. And while the most obvious outward signs of the Pon Farr may not have been present, how can we know what Spock was going through at that moment just because he was mostly keeping a lid on it?


The Keeper wrote: View Post
But you are correct, nuSpock really isn't THAT emotionally different from his prime counterpart of around the same times.
Well, as I mentioned, apart from totally different you mean?


Cinema Geekly wrote: View Post
Firstly I loved it!

The first time I saw WOK I liked that Kirk scene (still do) but as BillJ has pointed out, it can easily be broken apart and logically the whole scene doesn't make sense. And while I enjoy the scene I can still poke fun at it, and it is obvious that it has become one of if not THE biggest thing in Trek to parody.

That's part of the reason I like the NuScream so much.

That. Took. Balls.

To take something so made fun of, pair with another familiar scene from the same movie and play it dead serious?

I already knew it was coming as I read a ton of spoiler-y nerd rage filled complaints about it in advanced and I couldn't wait to see how good/terrible it would be in the context of the film.

It doesn't give me chills now, but the first time I saw it? CHILLS! Put yourself in the story, remember what Spock has gone through since childhood, to say nothing of the huge chunk of the first film and in story; they emotionally earned that.

You can of course argue the merits of using it in the first place, and ultimately I'd love to know what the exact mindset was, but either knowingly or unknowingly they did a gutsy thing with that scene.
I can appreciate you POV and while I don't hate the scream on theological grounds, it comes off as bad taste and rubs my nose in the originality problem. Too be honest, it doesn't bother me much even so (in a film that doesn't bother me actually). They probably thought most people who saw the movie wouldn't connect it with anything and I suspect they were right. So I think putting it in was more a case of trying to be clever than an excess of balls.
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Old November 22 2013, 11:53 PM   #44
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

Sindatur wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
People do realize the reason Shatner's "Khan!" scream is remembered is because most people think it's funny. Seriously, how much mileage have comedians and sitcoms gotten out of it in the last thirty years?

Most people don't consider it some dramatic moment that rivals the best other movies have to offer. It's remembered because Shatner is a ham and the scream was right up his alley.
Exactly. If you go back to before STiD premiered, you can find post after post making fun of how cheezy and ridiculous (and embarrassing) Shatner's Khan scream was. It was a trope, whenever someone wanted to look silly (or have a reaction to indicate someone else's post was ridiculous), they would post a Youtube video of Shatner's Khan scream

It wasn't until after the movie premiered that all of a sudden Shatner's Khan scream was considered sacred ground and Dramatic Theatrical Excellence.
But.. I thought we mocked it because we loved it?
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Old November 22 2013, 11:54 PM   #45
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Re: About the KHAN scream.

They already had a homage to the Khan scream in Trek 09, when Nero shouts "Spock!" in anger. And there it was much more organic.
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