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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old November 21 2013, 07:30 PM   #106
T'Girl
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

Unless Janice had unusually good sources of information, it occurred to me that Janice could not possible know Kirk's passwords, the combination to the safe in his quarters, his "command codes."

Computer security might not be a subject that the '60's production team would have thought of, but in the case of the Enterprise's self destruct, they did include a verbal code, not just a voice print.

Kirk's safe required a physical combination be employed.

Even if the Enterprise crew didn't figure out what happen, how long could crazy Janice pull off her impersonation?

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Old November 21 2013, 07:33 PM   #107
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

The one thing I never really bought in this episode was McCoy's psychological examination not revealing anything wrong with Kirk/Lester. Given the circumstances I'd tell Starfleet to toss that test in the trash and come up with something else.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Unless Janice had unusually good sources of information, it occurred to me that Janice could not possible know Kirk's passwords, the combination to the safe in his quarters, his "command codes."

Computer security might not be a subject that the '60's production team would have thought of, but in the case of the Enterprise's self destruct, they did include a verbal code, not just a voice print.

Kirk's safe required a physical combination be employed.

Even if the Enterprise crew didn't figure out what happen, how long could crazy Janice pull off her impersonation?

Exactly right. She would have run into serious problems eventually.
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Old November 22 2013, 01:00 AM   #108
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
I remember in a very old Daredevil comic book, he was in a police station, and some needed info came up on a computer screen. Daredevil basically "tricked" the person into reading what the screen said, which he, being blind, couldn't himself see!
Not having read Daredevil in ages, I'd never thought of that....He must be operating under more of a disadvantage these days than when he could rely on being able to read print with his fingertips.

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Well, Star Trek would seem to be contradictory on this. Number One in the the Cage/Menagerie is XO of the Enterprise. You don't become an XO, if you can't become a CO.
I always have to trot this out when the subject comes up, but in "The Cage", there's a scene where Pike says he can't get used to a woman being on the bridge...then apologizes to Number One on the basis that she's "different".
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Old November 22 2013, 02:06 AM   #109
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
I always have to trot this out when the subject comes up, but in "The Cage", there's a scene where Pike says he can't get used to a woman being on the bridge...then apologizes to Number One on the basis that she's "different".
But even so, in the context of the time, what that scene did was underline the fact that there were women on the bridge, and even if the protagonist shared the reaction that a lot of the mid-'60s viewing audience would have, the fact was that they were included as equals. Pike may not have gotten used to it yet, but it was a fact of life, and that was the real point. And let's not forget that Number One was in command of the ship for most of the episode, since Pike was held prisoner for most of the episode.
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Old November 22 2013, 02:19 AM   #110
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

Forgive me, I have to just kind of throw this in, because I always noticed one thing about the Janice Lester episode: When she and Kirk switch bodies, neither really feels themselves up, at all ... or check themselves out more thoroughly than they do. Yes, it's Sixties television, of course ... but I just can't help being distracted that neither of them is particularly phased by the new bodies they have. Shatner even went so far as to hug himself on a metal monolith owned by Native Americans, in one episode. Having a far prettier body would seem to justify at least that ... I mean, one self-hug ... come on!
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Old November 22 2013, 02:22 AM   #111
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

(RE: Christopher)

Well, the dialogue and the direction tell us two different things in that scene. The direction tells us there are a number of women on the bridge, not just Colt and Number One. The dialogue tells us that Pike isn't used to having any women on the bridge -- except for Number One.
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Old November 22 2013, 03:03 AM   #112
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

Christopher wrote: View Post
But even so, in the context of the time, what that scene did was underline the fact that there were women on the bridge, and even if the protagonist shared the reaction that a lot of the mid-'60s viewing audience would have, the fact was that they were included as equals. Pike may not have gotten used to it yet, but it was a fact of life, and that was the real point.
Perhaps, but they played it like it was a very recent development. Of course, that puts it in the same company as the "materializer" and breaking the "time barrier", so....

On the subject of the reversed-role acting...you have to give Shatner something of a break because Lester wasn't an established character on the show, so any subtleties of impersonation would have been lost...and I always thought the Lester actress got across some Kirkian mannerisms.

The biggest plot hole in the episode is that Kirk in Lester's body should have been able to pull out all kinds of minutiae that Lester couldn't possibly have known by studying public records. He lived and worked with Spock, McCoy, et al. every day.
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Old November 22 2013, 03:28 AM   #113
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
Perhaps, but they played it like it was a very recent development. Of course, that puts it in the same company as the "materializer" and breaking the "time barrier", so....
Quite so. Excellent point.
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Old November 22 2013, 03:31 AM   #114
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

Harvey wrote: View Post
(RE: Christopher)

Well, the dialogue and the direction tell us two different things in that scene. The direction tells us there are a number of women on the bridge, not just Colt and Number One. The dialogue tells us that Pike isn't used to having any women on the bridge -- except for Number One.
Yes, but it has to be considered in the context of the time. Women on the bridge was something that the 1960s audience would react to as unusual, so it was necessary to have a character acknowledge the novelty of it and then just move on and not mention it again. Consider that Pike did not say he didn't want women on the bridge or that it was against the rules. He only said he was having trouble getting used to it. Which is a way of acknowledging that it's the new status quo.

So from our perspective it sounds like institutionalized sexism, but from the perspective of the time it was actually progressive. It was saying "Yes, this is a novelty, but it's the way things are going to be." So no, it is not evidence that women were banned from command -- not when Number One spent the majority of the episode in command of the Enterprise while Pike was captive.


The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
Perhaps, but they played it like it was a very recent development. Of course, that puts it in the same company as the "materializer" and breaking the "time barrier", so....
Well, "Encounter at Farpoint" treated holodecks as a very recent development, something Riker was unfamiliar with, but then Voyager established that Janeway -- who was the same age as Riker -- had grown up playing Flotter and Treevis holoprograms. (And then there's the holographic rec room in TAS.)
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Old November 22 2013, 03:33 AM   #115
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
. . .When she and Kirk switch bodies, neither really feels themselves up, at all ... or check themselves out more thoroughly than they do. Yes, it's Sixties television, of course ... but I just can't help being distracted that neither of them is particularly phased by the new bodies they have. . .
Though it might be common today, in the 1960s, women didn't go around squeezing their boobs, nor did men grab their crotch.

And Kirk in Janice's body does have a reaction-- first noticing his/her hand is different, then looking at him/herself in a mirror registering shock. Though when talking aloud to himself before all that, he doesn't notice his voice has gone up an octave.
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Old November 22 2013, 04:06 AM   #116
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

As for Janeway and the holodeck, I suggest that she was using a more primitive limited holodeck. An old school Atari vs a playstation 4.
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Old November 22 2013, 04:13 AM   #117
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

The real reason Riker hated his dad: He never got a holodeck for Christmas.
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Old November 22 2013, 04:22 AM   #118
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

Christopher wrote: View Post
The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
Perhaps, but they played it like it was a very recent development. Of course, that puts it in the same company as the "materializer" and breaking the "time barrier", so....
Well, "Encounter at Farpoint" treated holodecks as a very recent development, something Riker was unfamiliar with, but then Voyager established that Janeway -- who was the same age as Riker -- had grown up playing Flotter and Treevis holoprograms. (And then there's the holographic rec room in TAS.)
I took The Old Mixer's point to be precisely that, like Turnabout Intruder, The Cage isn't exactly the example we'd like to have for what the role of women is in Starfleet in the mid-23rd century either, since it too must suffer at least a little retconning, and for exactly the same reason that Turnabout Intruder must.

I think it's an excellent point, and one that I'd glossed over before, myself.
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Old November 22 2013, 04:34 AM   #119
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

borgboy wrote: View Post
As for Janeway and the holodeck, I suggest that she was using a more primitive limited holodeck. An old school Atari vs a playstation 4.
The point is, different episodes' writers have different intentions, and sometimes what's asserted in one episode doesn't turn out to be "true" in the larger scheme of things. That's the nature of any ongoing series that's made up as it goes. So when dealing with authorial intention, the intent of a single episode should be weighed against the overall intent of the series or franchise as a whole. Because sometimes they conflict.
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Old November 22 2013, 08:04 AM   #120
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

The problem is that nothing in TOS or TAS counteracted Lester's claim.
There were never any women Captains seen or talked about in over 100 episodes.

Until ENT came along.
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