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Old November 19 2013, 07:25 AM   #91
exodus
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

Yes, I think a rewrite would have helped greatly.
I agree with those that said her senility should have been more closely.
The whole time travel element throws the episode off.
They should keep the whole fury aspect of the story as an example of someone who is loosing their mind, it is a form of dymentia after all.
I think it would have been a great story that's never really be touched upon in sci-fi, how do you care for someone with Kes' mental abilities once they do get old and forgetful? I think the ending should have been the same, too save Kes they would have to send her back to Ocampia.
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Old November 19 2013, 06:31 PM   #92
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

Star Trek is about adventures and exploring space, not about diseases and mental illness. There are plenty of programs about such items in each and every channel for those who are interested.

Not to mention the various doom-and-gloom series who seem to be the trend of the recent times when it comes to series of all sorts. A lot to choose among for those who like such series.

If they absolutely want to turn Star Trek into a hypochondriac's wet dream, something about diseases and illness, there are more suitable candidates to be a victiom of such items than Kes who probably would be the last one to go insane on that ship.

And I still can't see the reason to bring back a character which was dumped during dubious circumstances and which they have put down a lot of efforts to make us forget, only to ridicule, humiliate and ultimately destroy the character, thus showing a finger in the faces of the fans of that character.
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Old November 19 2013, 08:05 PM   #93
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

I'm not sure that it would be socially responsible to show a dementia patient being so dangerous though, there's already enough stigma about the condition.
Also, the flashbacks with young Kes were the only part of the episode I did like! Still, even that would've been a lot better than what we got.
I'd have rather not have had Kes return at all than the character assasination story we got. At least they were talked out of killing her off.
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Old November 20 2013, 07:04 AM   #94
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

borgboy wrote: View Post
I'm not sure that it would be socially responsible to show a dementia patient being so dangerous though, there's already enough stigma about the condition.
.
Dementia patients aren't psychokenetic.
That factor alone sets apart from any actual real life scenario.
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Old November 20 2013, 07:20 AM   #95
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

You don't have to call it dementia, you just give it some alien name. The time of Pah Somethingorother. Then everyone can nod along.
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Old November 20 2013, 08:18 AM   #96
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

teacake wrote: View Post
You don't have to call it dementia, you just give it some alien name. The time of Pah Somethingorother. Then everyone can nod along.
They already did, it was called the Mor Elogium.
In "Before & After" when everyone thought old Kes was talking gibberish, her daughter and the Doc had concluded that dementia was a symptom of it.
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Old November 20 2013, 08:25 AM   #97
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

Well, if free will was at work, sure, I'd believe that.

But Kes watched Janeway shoot her older self self dead, and she still tried to kill everyone when season 6 came around again, despite already talking herself out of it as a young girl.

Maybe a memory wipe/stroke rebooted her causality from a later point in her life post cloud, but I thoroughly suspect foul play where she was programmed like a weapon to destroy Voyager in the present and then the past by some dark interest.
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Old November 20 2013, 08:32 AM   #98
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Well, if free will was at work, sure, I'd believe that.

But Kes watched Janeway shoot her older self self dead, and she still tried to kill everyone when season 6 came around again, despite already talking herself out of it as a young girl.

Maybe a memory wipe/stroke rebooted her causality from a later point in her life post cloud, but I thoroughly suspect foul play where she was programmed like a weapon to destroy Voyager in the present and then the past by some dark interest.
You're remembering incorrectly.
Kes was drugged up and passed out on the floor.
She never saw Janeway kill her olderself. As a matter of fact, she never "saw" her olderself at all. ;-)
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Old November 20 2013, 08:42 AM   #99
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

Are you forgetting that the reset button is not real?

Kes didn't have to see the murder to know that it happened because she was there on the ship for the next 3 years in the wake of the murder where Janeway couldn't make eye contact with the little girl, and even had to record a message to herself, when she is older and insane trying to kill everyone which hopefully will curb her inescapable predestined illogical killer instinct.

Was there a corpse, or did Janeway disintegrate Old Kes?
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Old November 20 2013, 09:02 AM   #100
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Are you forgetting that the reset button is not real?

Kes didn't have to see the murder to know that it happened because she was there on the ship for the next 3 years in the wake of the murder where Janeway couldn't make eye contact with the little girl, and even had to record a message to herself, when she is older and insane trying to kill everyone which hopefully will curb her inescapable predestined illogical killer instinct.

Was there a corpse, or did Janeway disintegrate Old Kes?
Don't be foolish, Guy.
Nothing we talk about here is real.


Janeway ordered to crew to lie to the Doc for years about his breakdown and they all looked him in the eye everyday knowing it. You really think they wouldn't do the same to Kes?
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Old November 20 2013, 09:56 AM   #101
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

Just finished watching the episode.

The Doctor was deactivated when he asked why there were two Keses, but Kes, Tuvok and the Captain entered into a secret conspiracy to save the future and save B'Elanna (Tuvok had a vision of her death). Kes was mostly asleep as gammy Kes dragged her to the shuttle bay, but she would have had full access to what happened after the fact.

The corpse was not disintergrated, but if it wasn't given to the Doctor, what happened to it?

Having her first strike (both times) during Tuvok's birthday makes me wonder if Gammy Kes saw that as the last straw for some crazy reason?
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Old November 20 2013, 10:36 AM   #102
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

She did share some empathic times with Tuvok, maybe she was deeply jealous of how many more umpteen decades of life he got to live than her.
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Old November 20 2013, 01:58 PM   #103
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

I think the birthday was just a happy day that she remembered, now thru a veil of bitterness. Like she hated how happy she was after she decided that the happiness was a lie.
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Old November 20 2013, 07:31 PM   #104
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

The pathetic creature we saw in that horrible excuse for a Star Trek episode was so totally out of character that it must have been a being from a mirror universe.

In fact, the whole episode was out of character and looked like something being written by a lunatic.
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Old November 20 2013, 07:44 PM   #105
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Re: Could Fury have worked with a rewrite?

I still think it's weird that she would have to spend thousands of light years chasing Voyager down, just to get thrown back 40 thousand light years towards Ocampa.

There was this time in Red Dwarf when they time travelled to the 16th century. Of course they were still in deep space 3 million years from Earth, but it was still 3 million years from Earth in the 16th century.
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