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Old November 18 2013, 03:05 PM   #841
Mytran
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Hehe maybe so? Decker is at the port-side control panel close to the aft port elevator. If Kirk came down the forward starboard elevator then Decker might not see him immediately behind the intermix shaft. Kirk might be scoping out how and where he's going to break it to Decker and after seeing the lay of the land, goes back up and takes the aft port elevator to pop in onto Decker and Scotty. He then steers Decker over to the more private foyer which he spotted on his earlier drop to the main level.

A little wild, but it seems to fit the way the scene plays out, IMHO
I have to agree that (unfortunately) the positioning of the wall and ceiling means Kirk can't really be anywhere EXCEPT the main engineering level. So, like Blssdwlf I was mulling over the reasons why Kirk might want to go down/up/down and I came up with a scenario where Kirk is simply trying to find a quiet spot to break the bad news to Decker.

1) Kirk arrives at the upper level and peers over the railing. He spots Decker and takes the starboard-fore lift down to the main level.
2) Something (or someone!) catches his eye on the lower level and he pauses to gaze over the railing for moment. He then realises that in the meantime Decker has taken the port-aft lift to the upper level!
3) Since the upper level is a nice quiet spot to speak privately to Decker, Kirk takes the starboard-fore lift up to join him. However, Decker was only up there to collect a report from an underling and has now rejoined Scotty on the main level. Kirk sees this shortly after stepping off the lift and moving to the railing.
4) This puts Kirk's back up a bit - Decker couldn't possibly be avoiding him on purpose, could he? Kirk walks smartly to the port-aft lift and rides it down, no doubt cursing the absurdly slow speed of the lifts and wondering if a ladder could be fitted somewhere instead.
5) Kirk does not take his eye off Decker this time until he finally gets to speak to him.

It's a bit of an absurd scenario, but then it's an absurd camera shot too. However, it might explain Kirk's extra abruptness when dealing with Decker, whose cheery attitude would merely fuel suspicions in Kirk's mind that the young captain was leading him a merry dance on purpose. Kirk's terse "let's talk" before leading Decker over the FOYER of all places to publicly demote him would naturally follow; Kirk would have preferred somewhere private to do this, but he's wasted enough time chasing Decker around Engineering already!

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
...the mystery for me is where did he enter in from on the upper level? If he came in from the hexagon, his entry direction would have been from the right going to the ladder, right?
What I meant was that Kirk came into the upper level using the little lift from the level ABOVE that, the upper-upper level, if you will

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
In the Section 4 scene the camera zooms in onto the torpedo just about being loaded, in the next shot the camera zooms out. For one second in both of these scenes we can actually see the left half of the docking port number - it is a "2".
It actually looks more like a "3" to me - is is this just a typo, as you described the medical students crossing through "section 2" to "section 3" later in your post?

Having "bays" be more like "sections" solves quite a few issues, although it is a lot of sections for such a small area! I wondered myself if Bay 4 might be the aft launcher, and since the "photon exhaust port" is never explicitly called out as such on screen, it makes a perfectly fine launcher IMO.


Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Here's a publicity photo with Grace Lee Whitney standing in front of the fake extension which appears to consist of only six corridor wall elements.
A lovely pic - and very informative too! Those wall sections look like the smaller type (approx 4' wide) so it reduces the overall length of the extended corridor considerably!
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Old November 18 2013, 04:09 PM   #842
Robert Comsol
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Mytran wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
In the Section 4 scene the camera zooms in onto the torpedo just about being loaded, in the next shot the camera zooms out. For one second in both of these scenes we can actually see the left half of the docking port number - it is a "2".
It actually looks more like a "3" to me - is is this just a typo, as you described the medical students crossing through "section 2" to "section 3" later in your post?
No, I'm pretty sure it's a "2". Prior to the Blu-Ray Disc I wasn't able to spot it: My pan & scan laserdiscs cropped off that area, and the resolution of my letterbox CLV LaserDisc wasn't that great either (no freeze frame button), and I forgot to check it out on my anamorphic DVD. All we now need is an optimal freeze frame screencap of that very, very short scene.

Regardless, since the docking port on the port side is DP 4 (or 5) and that docking port in the photorp loading scene is neither of these two, it has to lead to the docking port on the starboard side...

The medical students are "in" Section 2 (forward launcher loading) but either go to the travel pod or go to Section 3 (outer port side according to the aforementioned loading scene in Section 4)

Mytran wrote: View Post
Having "bays" be more like "sections" solves quite a few issues, although it is a lot of sections for such a small area! I wondered myself if Bay 4 might be the aft launcher, and since the "photon exhaust port" is never explicitly called out as such on screen, it makes a perfectly fine launcher IMO.
Yes, it is a lot of sections but all can be individually sealed off from one another and I reckon it's a much better rationalization than all the other and weird ones we'd been dealing with previously. I'm working on an illustration to visualize the issue. Unfortunately both Lee Cole (Klingon Bridge deck plan) and Shane Johnson (Torpedo Bay deck plan) feature a couple of oddities in their plans that require a couple of corrections.

I'm just not sure if the aft torpedo launcher would have been a feature already available on the TMP Enterprise. I would rather think it was an addition in later years (while I know there had been aft phasers on the TOS Enterprise, the retroactive addition of a photorp launcher, too, in "In A Mirror, Darkly" on the Defiant was a little too much for me).

Bob
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Old November 18 2013, 10:52 PM   #843
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Mytran wrote: View Post
I have to agree that (unfortunately) the positioning of the wall and ceiling means Kirk can't really be anywhere EXCEPT the main engineering level. So, like Blssdwlf I was mulling over the reasons why Kirk might want to go down/up/down and I came up with a scenario where Kirk is simply trying to find a quiet spot to break the bad news to Decker.

1) Kirk arrives at the upper level and peers over the railing. He spots Decker and takes the starboard-fore lift down to the main level.
2) Something (or someone!) catches his eye on the lower level and he pauses to gaze over the railing for moment. He then realises that in the meantime Decker has taken the port-aft lift to the upper level!
3) Since the upper level is a nice quiet spot to speak privately to Decker, Kirk takes the starboard-fore lift up to join him. However, Decker was only up there to collect a report from an underling and has now rejoined Scotty on the main level. Kirk sees this shortly after stepping off the lift and moving to the railing.
4) This puts Kirk's back up a bit - Decker couldn't possibly be avoiding him on purpose, could he? Kirk walks smartly to the port-aft lift and rides it down, no doubt cursing the absurdly slow speed of the lifts and wondering if a ladder could be fitted somewhere instead.
5) Kirk does not take his eye off Decker this time until he finally gets to speak to him.

It's a bit of an absurd scenario, but then it's an absurd camera shot too. However, it might explain Kirk's extra abruptness when dealing with Decker, whose cheery attitude would merely fuel suspicions in Kirk's mind that the young captain was leading him a merry dance on purpose. Kirk's terse "let's talk" before leading Decker over the FOYER of all places to publicly demote him would naturally follow; Kirk would have preferred somewhere private to do this, but he's wasted enough time chasing Decker around Engineering already!
I like it!

Mytran wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
...the mystery for me is where did he enter in from on the upper level? If he came in from the hexagon, his entry direction would have been from the right going to the ladder, right?
What I meant was that Kirk came into the upper level using the little lift from the level ABOVE that, the upper-upper level, if you will
Ahh I see what you're getting at. An entry point from the torpedo bay?

Mytran wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Here's a publicity photo with Grace Lee Whitney standing in front of the fake extension which appears to consist of only six corridor wall elements.
A lovely pic - and very informative too! Those wall sections look like the smaller type (approx 4' wide) so it reduces the overall length of the extended corridor considerably!
Unfortunately, I had already accounted for one of the short sections so after correcting for the furthest one I could only shave off about 4'. Then I gained the 4' to 5' back by adding the perpendicular corridor since I had originally placed a flat wall there in it's place. So no length change in my version
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Old November 19 2013, 12:02 AM   #844
Mytran
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
No, I'm pretty sure it's a "2". Prior to the Blu-Ray Disc I wasn't able to spot it: My pan & scan laserdiscs cropped off that area, and the resolution of my letterbox CLV LaserDisc wasn't that great either (no freeze frame button), and I forgot to check it out on my anamorphic DVD. All we now need is an optimal freeze frame screencap of that very, very short scene.
Yep there it is! I was previously relying on Trekcore's screencaps, which often fail to capture the very micro-second in question. However, now that I am home:



Happy to stand corrected on this - what you said now makes a lot more sense too!

So, is it Torpedo Bays 1-2 which exploded during Khan's attack in the nebula? It must be the ones facing forward and the attack left a nasty scar on the outside of that section. However, the damage is all gone by the time of Spock's funeral and that is definitely held in Bay 1-2. The torpedo comes out of the front launcher, so we must assume that Bay 1-2 face forward. Maybe the damage wasn't that bad after all, limited mostly to the portside Photorp launcher itself?

Last edited by Mytran; November 19 2013 at 12:22 AM.
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Old November 19 2013, 01:08 AM   #845
Robert Comsol
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Nice screencap, Mytran! Unfortunately we don't get a better look at the "2", but it's obviously there.

Judging by the torpedo bay arrival scene there is an outer section and/or corridor between the actual loading bay and the outer hull (the "airlock"). While the Reliant's starboad phaser cut the port side open, it apparently didn't cut all the way into the loading bay, but possibly destroyed the port side launcher cooling system and one phaser beam also drilled a hole into the loading bay, spraying highly inflammable gas into the area which ignited. Thus the damage seemed bigger than it actually was (or was it just the oxygen supply of EVA suits closeby?).

Of course the torpedo gunners sitting at their bow consoles were killed or severely injured which at least could also explain Chekov's manual override torpedo firing joystick on the bridge. That didn't look like standard torpedo firing procedure to me.

Bob
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Old November 19 2013, 01:27 AM   #846
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

It does look like the outer section between the forward port torpedo bay and the outer hull absorbed the damage. The explosion in the torpedo bay that killed or injured the torpedo gunners didn't include any venting into space which would suggest that the explosion was a secondary explosion and perhaps not that internally damaging as Mytran suggests. (Although the port tube becomes inoperative.)
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Old November 20 2013, 03:01 PM   #847
Mytran
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Unfortunately, I had already accounted for one of the short sections so after correcting for the furthest one I could only shave off about 4'. Then I gained the 4' to 5' back by adding the perpendicular corridor since I had originally placed a flat wall there in it's place. So no length change in my version
Just out of curiosity, what width are you finding the crosswise corridors in the painting to be? I've always guessed about 4' since the gaps seem too closely spaced to be the full 8'.

Also, after studying the GLW painting again, it seems like there might be TWO corridors crossing - one at the far end, one about half way up; with two pairs of doors facing each other. Is this what you saw as well?
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Old November 21 2013, 04:10 AM   #848
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

@Mytran - My current screen match estimate is sitting at 4'6" width for the cross corridors (gaps). I count 5 "gaps" between the perpendicular corridor at the end of the hallway and the cross corridor nearest the camera. I suspect these gaps could be either mini-corridors or doors. It's hard to tell as we don't have additional angles.
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Old November 21 2013, 08:32 AM   #849
Mytran
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

It's difficult to be sure, but it seems to me that there's a bigger gap in between the second pair than the first or third ones. Difficult to be sure with the final crossing at the very far end, but the structural rules of the rest of the set would make this unlikely to be a door.

Another thought struck me - the number of bays is very similar to what you would see if you stood at the (lower left) end of the long straight corridor and looked up towards the T-junction (you'd need to split the single wide panel in half of course). Might this be where the artist got their lines from?
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Old November 21 2013, 03:17 PM   #850
Mytran
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Of course the torpedo gunners sitting at their bow consoles were killed or severely injured which at least could also explain Chekov's manual override torpedo firing joystick on the bridge. That didn't look like standard torpedo firing procedure to me.
Indeed, and since the Torpedo Bay was assuradly out of action at the time, it means the two torpedoes launched had to have been sitting in the tube already, preloaded by the now injured crew. If there was also a torpedo (or two) sitting in the portside tube during Khan's attack it would certainly explain the mighty explosion!

FORCED PERSPECTIVE & PAINTED BACKDROPS

FP has been used in film making for decades, in everything from Star Trek to Willy Wonka. It was used in the Star Trek pilot "The Cage" of course (Talosian corridor), but more famously in main series run as the "cathedral tubes" in TOS Engineering. Thanks the FP, in our first visit to the Engine Room we were treated to the depiction of a huge, long piece of equipment behind protective mesh and it looked pretty realistic. However, before long the directors began freeing themselves from the restrictive camera angles that were imposed on them by FP and we ended up seeing the tube structure as it really was.
FP was used agin for the Engine Room in TMP and works pretty well, with child-actors standing in for adults at the far end. Only one camera angle was really used, which helped carry the illusion. The isolation door in TWOK was added by Nicholas Meyer to free up his camera angles, but in the process of filming the scene the tapered angle of the walls and walkway were revealed. Still, it is a great scene.

As far as I know, painted backdrops were not used in TOS (although matte paintings certainly were). However, they too have a long history in stage & film and Robert Wise seemed perfectly happy to include them in TMP. Here, painted backdrops represented very long corridors throughout the ship, although there were places where there didn't seem to be enough room to include them in the vessel's structure! Then again, maybe they weren't real corridors after all?

Mytran wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
...it seemed clear that the only way that such a long straight corridor could ever squeeze into B-deck was if a portion of it was some sort of holographic display - perhaps an attempt by the Enterprise's interior decorators to relieve feelings of claustrophobia?
Holographic panels suggesting more space than available might be an unorthodox but helpful solution, IMHO.
Helpful until you run into one by accident. Not a good way to trust your ship
How says these are high resolution? The closer one gets it could become more obvious it's just an illusion.
You don't need to be close up to see that it's an illusion - and although I initially suggested "holographic" images, I think I was being too generous. Painted backdrops share all the inherent problems of a forced-perspective set except that being 2-dimension the camera is even more restricted in the angles that work to carry the illusion. On a straight corridor the mismatching of lines becomes more obvious than ever, leading to floors that appear to slope up or down at weird angles. At worst, the painted backdrop depicts a corridor that diverts sharply to one side, when a moment ago it was mostly straight.

Where you can get away with it, backdrop painting are a cheap solution to extending the depth of your set. TNG continued the tradition such as in the pilot, and also in the episode Coming of Age. Here they used a backdrop used RIGHT NEXT to the actors, never a good thing!

Backdrops continued to be used throughout TNG, DS9 and VOY. Federation Jefferies Tubes were a frequent user from their very first appearance leading to some odd angles sometimes, although mostly worked OK if you squinted.

In Lessons the "floor sloping" issue is present but the reasons behind the scene blocking are clear a moment later.

It was used really well in Quality of Life but usually just wound up behind the actors, who masked many of the deficiencies in using a backdrop painting.

The best use of a painted backdrop in Star Trek was on the corridor set of DS9, where the effect was used to depict the huge curving arch of the massive space station. With no straight lines to match up, the illusion was far easier to carry off and was used extensively throughout the show.

So, what can we make of all this in relation to the walls and corridors on the refit Enterprise? I must admit, I am tempted to treat them as what they are - painted murals on the corridor walls, much as you'd find landscapes or pleasant vistas on modern hospital wards or posh reception areas. However, the image of a medium length straight corridor painted on a flat wall is neither aesthetically pleasing (like a landscape) nor would it carry off the illusion of extra space unless viewed from a very specific position. Deviating from that viewpoint by even a little would make the corridor appear weirdly angled, or just fake. Also, a (in-universe) painted mural is clearly NOT what the set decorators intended and I am loathe to go so against them so completely. If I can rationalise away any oddities (strange energy emissions causing visual distortions etc) and keep the long corridors, I will.
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Old November 21 2013, 03:29 PM   #851
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

I love this thread, love the work, but excuse me... I think trying to fit in that long, long blue corridor in relation to the exit of engineering is probably a waste. There's so many other beautiful problems to solve and *one* shot where there should have been a stub of a corridor a curve... well, I guess there's no sense changing the routing of the intermix system just because a long corridor was in the background. Probert's drawing shows it going up, the markings on the hull seem to correspond to the location of it.

Of course the main thread is about the TOS Enterprise, but... do we *really* need to rethink the entire secondary hull of the TMP ship because of *one* shot where they use the long-ass hallway with the set extension? Is that what we need to be tied to?

Just a thought. Love the possibilities. Love the thread =).
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Old November 21 2013, 04:14 PM   #852
Robert Comsol
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

@ Mytran

I seriously think you should open a new thread about the forced perspectives in the general section, others might find this topic equally interesting. Maybe someone gets in touch with CBS-D and they fix some of the worst offenders for TNG remastered while they still can.

Gagarin wrote: View Post
I guess there's no sense changing the routing of the intermix system just because a long corridor was in the background. Probert's drawing shows it going up, the markings on the hull seem to correspond to the location of it.
Thinking of myself being a Probert fan I find this entire situation absolutely uncomfortable. Andrew Probert himself criticized the blue corridor, so what we have is a contradiction between the production designer's intent (and cutaways ) and what the actual footage tells us.

Then we have the issue of the actual length (even at maximum forced perspective Illusion) of the horizontal intermix shaft before it splits to feed the nacelles which also supports the "relocation" of the shaft further to the stern.

And last but not least, we do have the issue of where the turbo shaft coming from the narrow connecting dorsal enters the engine room level...

I'm afraid the only practical location will be the outermost bow of the engineering hull where the intermix shaft is usually assumed to be. I'm working on an accurate reproduction of the TWOK torpedo bays and I think can already state that the intermix shaft would have to be located behind the back wall of Torpedo Bay Section 2 (docking port vicinity).

According to the current state of research Matt Jefferies envisioned the vertical intermix shaft to be near the stern while Andrew Probert put it at the bow. It's not a relief, but I think one could say that relocating it in-between those two would be a somewhat acceptable compromise, IMHO (since I revere both gentlemen).

Gagarin wrote: View Post
Of course the main thread is about the TOS Enterprise, but... do we *really* need to rethink the entire secondary hull of the TMP ship because of *one* shot where they use the long-ass hallway with the set extension? Is that what we need to be tied to?
Interestingly, you'll find the same active guys participating in TMP Enterprise related issues to be equally active when it comes to the TOS Enterprise.

I really hated the idea to relocate Probert's intermix shaft but for the aforementioned reasons, I'm running out of good excuses. Forced perspective or not, the blue corridor at the bow is there (also in TWOK though only in a short scene with a shorter corridor) and inevitably pushes the engine room further to the stern.

Bob
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Old November 22 2013, 05:00 AM   #853
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Mytran wrote: View Post
It's difficult to be sure, but it seems to me that there's a bigger gap in between the second pair than the first or third ones. Difficult to be sure with the final crossing at the very far end, but the structural rules of the rest of the set would make this unlikely to be a door.

Another thought struck me - the number of bays is very similar to what you would see if you stood at the (lower left) end of the long straight corridor and looked up towards the T-junction (you'd need to split the single wide panel in half of course). Might this be where the artist got their lines from?
Lemme check that. Looking at it again I see that the FP is noticeable with a slight angle up in the Kirk entry scene of the top corridor and there is a angle to the side in the Kirk-Decker foyer scene. What I think you might be seeing is not necessarily a difference in the gap distance but an optical illusion in the FP paintings "near" wall being brighter which could appear to give it a larger gap. (The other gaps are darker in appearance.)

Gagarin wrote: View Post
I love this thread, love the work, but excuse me... I think trying to fit in that long, long blue corridor in relation to the exit of engineering is probably a waste. There's so many other beautiful problems to solve and *one* shot where there should have been a stub of a corridor a curve... well, I guess there's no sense changing the routing of the intermix system just because a long corridor was in the background. Probert's drawing shows it going up, the markings on the hull seem to correspond to the location of it.

Of course the main thread is about the TOS Enterprise, but... do we *really* need to rethink the entire secondary hull of the TMP ship because of *one* shot where they use the long-ass hallway with the set extension? Is that what we need to be tied to?

Just a thought. Love the possibilities. Love the thread =).
I see what you're saying, but part of the scope of this project is to approach it as what is shown, warts and all. "What would the Thermians do?" Since this Thermian considers the movie Enterprise a resource for the TOS Enterprise, it's just the direction this project happens to dabble in

Perhaps one day I'll tackle the designer's version of the TMP Enterprise.
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Old November 22 2013, 07:29 AM   #854
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Mytran wrote: View Post

As far as I know, painted backdrops were not used in TOS (although matte paintings certainly were).
I can think of one painted scenic backdrop: the surface of Talos IV in "The Cage" was a painting. I've always wondered where that came from. I doubt it was made for the production. It always reminded me of the Altair IV backdrop from Forbidden Planet, and plenty of stuff from that film landed in The Twilight Zone and The Outer Limits, so it wouldn't be inconcievable that the backdrop got re-used for the Trek pilot film. If anyone knows the origins of that particular item, I'd be intersted to know it.

But, as far as extending Interior spaces, I can't think of any paintings used in TOS... just quick re-arraging of wild set segments. And the minature set for the shuttlebay.

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Old November 22 2013, 03:45 PM   #855
Robert Comsol
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

I can't help but get back to Mytran's suggestion that the extended corridor ahead of the engine room (i.e. the forced perspective extension) is, indeed, a holographic display or a simple display screen / wall panel.

We are watching these decisive scenes at a stage, where not even the main viewscreen aboard the bridge has been activated, yet.

Thus, the simulation of an extended corridor could simply be another test picture at this stage of the departure preparations. IIRC we never see the extended corridor again once the ship is operational (and in TWOK this corridor ended where such a display panel would be).

I know, the turbo lift cab display is a rough approximation at best, but I'm confident that the actual existing (set) part of the blue corridor is essentially a turbo lift lobby - and the holographic or display screen would indicate which turbo lift cabs would arrive next (left or right arrows) for anybody leaving the engine room.

If that were not the case you'd just be waiting in the corridor and would constantly have to look around to learn where to actually catch the next cab up or down.

IMHO, the turbo lift lobby idea is emphasized by
  • Kirk entering this corridor from the port side on the upper level
  • Kirk and Scotty running to the starboard side on the main level (ahead of the transporter malfunction scene)
Which reminds me to mention a quote from Roddenberry's TMP novelization:

"Montgomery Scott stood in the midst of what to many would have seemed pandemonium. The engine's intermix chamber, extending three levels above him and four more below, did not yet ..."

Is this still compatible with a vertical intermix shaft that runs up all the way into the impulse deflection crystal?

Bob
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