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Old November 13 2013, 06:54 AM   #31
rfmcdpei
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Re: What next for Section 31? [SPOILERS]

ITCH wrote: View Post
As Bashir said to Sloan in episode “Inter Arma…”: “This war isn't over and you're already planning for the next!”.
I'm not sure that you're accurately reading Bashir's statement. For starters, he wasn't giving Sloan and Section 31 a compliment.

And what if the Dominion retaliated? They were already decimating Starfleet and civil populations in both the Gamma and Alfa Quadrants!.]
Starfleet, yes, but not the civilian populations.

What else could they do? Make fun of Starfleet uniforms to hurt some feelings?
I was thinking of the obvious possibility that the Dominion might respond to Section 31's use of biological weapons by retaliating in kind. Why not? They did that to the Teplans after they only rebelled against Dominion rule.

The point is: S31 believe they are the “good guys” and their cause is justified.
Yes. That says nothing about how effective Section 31 is. It certainly says nothing of the extent to which Section 31 actions can undermine Federation security, by being willing to take significant risks without actually being accountable to anyone.

A major theme in the novels is that Section 31 actually isn't competent, and that its efforts frequently go haywire. In Cloak, ill-judged experiments with the Omega molecule end up making much of the Lantaru sector impassable to warp travel. In Abyss, a Section 31 attempt to take over a Jem'Hadar breeding facility for Federation use leads to one of its agents trying to use it to start a Federation-Romulan war. In Rogue, Section 31 attempts to deal directly with the Tal Shi'ar nearly give the Romulans control over a subspace singularity that would literally give them the power to take over the galaxy.

Going by this evidence alone, Section 31 needs to be destroyed before it undermines the Federation terminally.

And we are not sure how S31 is organized but if it’s anything like the Drug Cartels or Al Qaeda, you haven’t finished writing your press release about capturing “the head” when the replacement is already sipping champagne and celebrating the promotion.
It is worth noting that the mafia in North America, at least, has been substantially weakened from its early 20th century heyday.
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Old November 13 2013, 07:03 AM   #32
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Re: What next for Section 31? [SPOILERS]

Two more points.

ITCH wrote: View Post
I’m sure S31 had access to the analysis the Jack pack made of the Dominion War in “Statistical Probabilities”. According to that analysis the odds were completely against the Federation and the best option was to surrender in order to survive and fight another day. I have no military training but from what I read and watched on tv and movies, there’s a “tactic” that when you’re up your neck, with nowhere to go, no hope of rescue or reinforcement, and the enemy is not going to spare your life even if you surrender, you may as well attack and hope to take a couple more of enemies lives before you go down. So, S31 went for it.
It's worth noting that this best-case scenario would not be possible if the Dominion found out that the Federation attempted genocide against the Dominion. Again, given the Dominion's past deployment of biological weapons against rebellious subjects, matching the Federation's attack in kind would be quite plausible.

By closing off a less bad possibility, Section 31 risked the survival of the Federation's populations.

ITCH wrote: View Post
rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
The Federation didn't follow up the Dominion War by finishing the job that Jem'Hadar had started on the Cardassians, but rather extended an extensive decade-long aid program.


And just in case Cardassia decide to turn against the Federation, guess who has the location and schematic of every water plant, communication network and industrial replicator the Federation provided or help to build in the last ten years? Assuming they don’t already all come with a nice hidden self destruct app that run in cardassian OP, IOS, and Microsoft....
Indeed. Genocide, such as threatened and actually committed by Section 31, is not a Federation value. Even when faced with civilizations like the Cardassian, which have a history of waging aggressive war against the Federation and commit atrocities up to and including medical experimentation on Federation civilians, the Federation chooses instead to rehabilitate these civilizations.

What reason is there to think that Section 31 actually does represent Federation values?
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Old November 14 2013, 06:51 AM   #33
Elias Vaughn
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Re: What next for Section 31? [SPOILERS]

The Federation did consider genocide against the Borg, though. Picard only decided against when he actually spoke with Hugh.

Devil's advocate and all.
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Old November 14 2013, 03:02 PM   #34
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Re: What next for Section 31? [SPOILERS]

Elias Vaughn wrote: View Post
The Federation did consider genocide against the Borg, though. Picard only decided against when he actually spoke with Hugh.

Devil's advocate and all.
(That's fair.)

The strategy of attempted genocide against the Borg was initially proposed, but it was soon rejected upon more critical examination.

It was one of the brilliant insights of Destiny to recognize that the drones didn't need killing, they needed liberating. The survival of the Federation and all of its neighbours was achieved through an act of mercy.

Section 31 would have been incapable of this breakthrough. Likely it would have attempted genocide against the Borg, failed due to its own limited knowledge, and set up the stage for comprehensive Borg retaliation against the Federation.
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Old November 14 2013, 07:11 PM   #35
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Re: What next for Section 31? [SPOILERS]

rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
Genocide, such as threatened and actually committed by Section 31, is not a Federation value.
Actually General Order 24 lets so Starfleet basically commit genocide. So aparently they aren't entirely opposed to it.
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Old November 14 2013, 07:29 PM   #36
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Re: What next for Section 31? [SPOILERS]

I wonder if, by Picard's time, that General Order's been disposed of...?
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Old November 14 2013, 07:49 PM   #37
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Re: What next for Section 31? [SPOILERS]

DEWLine wrote: View Post
I wonder if, by Picard's time, that General Order's been disposed of...?
Then the federation better hope something like the xenmorphs from the alien films, the Flood from Halo, or just plain zombies shows up or they're screwed.
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Old November 15 2013, 09:19 AM   #38
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Re: What next for Section 31? [SPOILERS]

DEWLine wrote: View Post
I wonder if, by Picard's time, that General Order's been disposed of...?
The novel A Time to Kill establishes that as of 2379, General Order 24 has been abolished and that the Eminiar Amendment to the Federation Charter bans the destruction of a planetary surface.
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Old November 17 2013, 06:10 AM   #39
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Re: What next for Section 31? [SPOILERS]

rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
ITCH wrote: View Post
As Bashir said to Sloan in episode “Inter Arma…”: “This war isn't over and you're already planning for the next!”.
I'm not sure that you're accurately reading Bashir's statement. For starters, he wasn't giving Sloan and Section 31 a compliment.
I was quoting Bashir to highlight the tactical and forward thinking practices of S31. You may not agree with that statement but Admiral Ross did when SI and S31 got rid of Senator Cretak (even when she was an ally of the Federation) just because she could eventually turn against them. (DS9 Inter Arma...)

[QUOTE=rfmcdpei;8884555]
ITCH wrote: View Post
And what if the Dominion retaliated? They were already decimating Starfleet and civil populations in both the Gamma and Alfa Quadrants!.
rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
Starfleet, yes, but not the civilian populations.
If you haven’t seen DS9 episode “The Quickening” you may read about it in http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/The_..._%28episode%29
It takes place in DS9 season 4 and it’s about a civil population in the Gamma Quadrant slowly dying because The Dominion infected them with a plague after they defied them.

To end my participation on this thread let my recap. You called S31 “reckless” and think because of its radical actions and unaccountability it is set for a hard fall.

My thoughts based on ST canon and real life facts is that being without conscience or being unaccountable
unfortunately does not necessarily means you are heading for a doom. If nowadays cases of corporate accountability are complex, try it on an organization that is not even registered.

You presented the case on how incompetent Section 31 is pictured on the books. I only read The Abbys but on it, they manipulated Locken and then they sent Bashir to stop him because he “was nuts and a danger for the Federation”. At the end, everybody helped Section 31 thinking they were serving their own agendas, S31 outsourced the services they needed, took minimum losses and left no evidence of their involvement.

If that's incompetence, our CEO would probably fired half the company in exchange for a couple of S31 operatives...

And as I stated before, according to canon Section 31 has been around for 200+years and the Federation is still standing. So, either they must have been doing something right or they have biggest streak of sheer dumb luck in non written history!
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Old November 18 2013, 01:11 AM   #40
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Re: What next for Section 31? [SPOILERS]

Sci wrote: View Post
DEWLine wrote: View Post
I wonder if, by Picard's time, that General Order's been disposed of...?
The novel A Time to Kill establishes that as of 2379, General Order 24 has been abolished and that the Eminiar Amendment to the Federation Charter bans the destruction of a planetary surface.
I think they should hang on to it in the possible event they may need something like that.
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Old November 18 2013, 01:34 AM   #41
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Re: What next for Section 31? [SPOILERS]

^ What would a situation be where they would "need" it? It certainly wouldn't be considered a "measured" response even in the episode Kirk threatened to use it in. Even if you're trying to destroy, say, a random Shedai on the surface of a planet, glassing the *entire* surface would be extreme overkill. I'm really surprised Starfleet has such a general order in the first place.
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Old November 18 2013, 02:07 AM   #42
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Re: What next for Section 31? [SPOILERS]

Well it's not like Starfleet ships don't have the capability to do it if they so desired. I think the whole point of the amendment is to take the option off the table except for cases where it might call for the Federation Council to debate it.
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Old November 18 2013, 03:11 AM   #43
Hartzilla2007
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Re: What next for Section 31? [SPOILERS]

Avro Arrow wrote: View Post
^ What would a situation be where they would "need" it? It certainly wouldn't be considered a "measured" response even in the episode Kirk threatened to use it in. Even if you're trying to destroy, say, a random Shedai on the surface of a planet, glassing the *entire* surface would be extreme overkill. I'm really surprised Starfleet has such a general order in the first place.
I was thinking more of in case Starfleet encountered something like the Flood from Halo aka something you want to make damed sure is dead or else the galactic apocalypse will result when it figures out how to get off the planet.

Nob Akimoto wrote: View Post
Well it's not like Starfleet ships don't have the capability to do it if they so desired. I think the whole point of the amendment is to take the option off the table except for cases where it might call for the Federation Council to debate it.
And if its a situation where there is a ticking clock that not's really a good thing since legislative bodies aren't known for rapid decision making.
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Old November 18 2013, 04:57 AM   #44
Avro Arrow
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Re: What next for Section 31? [SPOILERS]

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
I was thinking more of in case Starfleet encountered something like the Flood from Halo aka something you want to make damed sure is dead or else the galactic apocalypse will result when it figures out how to get off the planet.
I don't play Halo, but I'm going to guess based on context that you're talking about something other than rising water levels!
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Old November 18 2013, 05:17 AM   #45
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Re: What next for Section 31? [SPOILERS]

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Avro Arrow wrote: View Post
^ What would a situation be where they would "need" it? It certainly wouldn't be considered a "measured" response even in the episode Kirk threatened to use it in. Even if you're trying to destroy, say, a random Shedai on the surface of a planet, glassing the *entire* surface would be extreme overkill. I'm really surprised Starfleet has such a general order in the first place.
I was thinking more of in case Starfleet encountered something like the Flood from Halo aka something you want to make damed sure is dead or else the galactic apocalypse will result when it figures out how to get off the planet.

Nob Akimoto wrote: View Post
Well it's not like Starfleet ships don't have the capability to do it if they so desired. I think the whole point of the amendment is to take the option off the table except for cases where it might call for the Federation Council to debate it.
And if its a situation where there is a ticking clock that not's really a good thing since legislative bodies aren't known for rapid decision making.
If there were ever a legitimate need to glass a planetary surface, a decent captain would issue the order come what may and then take responsibility afterwards. Meanwhile, not having it be strictly illegal is just begging for someone to come along and find loopholes and abuses and use it when it's not appropriate.
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