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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old November 10 2013, 06:17 PM   #16
The Old Mixer
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

^Sisko certainly did.
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Old November 10 2013, 06:34 PM   #17
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

DonIago wrote: View Post
The Federation was also in the midst of the most costly war it had ever experienced; it's not entirely surprising if they made some moral sacrifices along the way.
Which I think was the point. There are several lines of dialogue in the film suggesting how dire the situation has become due to the war with the Dominion. That the Federation would even consider aligning itself with the Son'a shows how badly they needed another ally. The irony was that the Son'a were in bed with the Dominion at the same time.

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Old November 11 2013, 10:31 AM   #18
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Lance wrote: View Post
^ They've got 'intergalactic assholes' written all over them from virtually the first scene they appear in.

Mind you, I suppose that isn't really a reason for the Federation not to ally with them, is it? Seeing as the Federation seems to be full of intergalactic assholes itself (see any Admiral in the series, heck see the Admiral in this very movie!).
Or they could have made the Baku more likeable.

I just thought they were smug bastards and had no sympathy for them.

I just thought of the more likeable pre-Warp civilsations that Picard let perish over the years and the American Indians he moved from their spiritual home on orders from Starfleet
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Old November 11 2013, 11:15 AM   #19
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Sran wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
The Federation was also in the midst of the most costly war it had ever experienced; it's not entirely surprising if they made some moral sacrifices along the way.
Which I think was the point. There are several lines of dialogue in the film suggesting how dire the situation has become due to the war with the Dominion. That the Federation would even consider aligning itself with the Son'a shows how badly they needed another ally. The irony was that the Son'a were in bed with the Dominion at the same time.

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On some level I do wonder just how bad things 'got' that the Federation would sell out it's morals to a group so obviously bad as the Son'a. I know DS9 did touch on it slightly, it was certainly a dark time for the Federation. But it'd be interesting to see some the ramifications of that war. Were there Federation member worlds for example who actually seceded from the Federation? If enough of member worlds basically said "No, we understand the need to take these measures against the Dominion threat, but we do not support them" and they formally handed back their Federation membership cards, then I could understand how the Federation would be forced to court the likes of the Son'a. They'd need all the help they can get.

But that's the only scenario I can imagine that happening in. If they had any other option available to them, I just don't buy it as believable that they'd fall in with the Son'a, given that the Son'a are drawn in the movie as being such genuinely nasty guys (and unashamedly so).


CommishSleer wrote: View Post
Or they could have made the Baku more likeable.

I just thought they were smug bastards and had no sympathy for them.

I just thought of the more likeable pre-Warp civilsations that Picard let perish over the years and the American Indians he moved from their spiritual home on orders from Starfleet

Oh, totally agree. The Baku were assholes as well, though not intergalactically so (by choice).
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Old November 15 2013, 12:37 AM   #20
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
Lance wrote: View Post
^ They've got 'intergalactic assholes' written all over them from virtually the first scene they appear in.

Mind you, I suppose that isn't really a reason for the Federation not to ally with them, is it? Seeing as the Federation seems to be full of intergalactic assholes itself (see any Admiral in the series, heck see the Admiral in this very movie!).
Or they could have made the Baku more likeable.

I just thought they were smug bastards and had no sympathy for them.

I just thought of the more likeable pre-Warp civilsations that Picard let perish over the years and the American Indians he moved from their spiritual home on orders from Starfleet
Yup.

I don't think the Ba'ku were worth saving. Picard got a hard on for Anji, and that was that though.
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Old November 16 2013, 08:48 AM   #21
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Son'a would be serviceable bad guys if they actually did anything in the first two acts other than get their skin stretched as and if Insurrection were just a straight simplistic action flick, not an awkward Trek attempt at mixing light comedy/sci-fi action/ethical dilemma based drama.

As is they basically are in a tie with the Ba'ku with smug naturalism in a dead heat with dull hamminess in likability.
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Old November 16 2013, 08:51 AM   #22
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

They lost me at the point where they told Picard "We know what an Android is, our technology is just as advanced as yours"

You could taste the smug in the air. So why did they need saving again? I'd have let them get transported away in that holodeck ship and laugh all the way back to the Federation.
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Old November 16 2013, 09:38 AM   #23
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Melakon wrote: View Post
F. Murray Abraham must have been wondering what happened to his career after winning the Oscar.
Two of my favorite things about this movie are F. Murray Abraham, whom I have adored since his role as Salieri in Amadeus, and the film's cinematography, which I think looks gorgeous.

Other than that, there's not a lot for me to like. If it weren't for F. Murray Abraham, and my love of Star Trek, I would have skipped the film entirely.
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Old November 16 2013, 10:26 AM   #24
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Melakon wrote: View Post
F. Murray Abraham must have been wondering what happened to his career after winning the Oscar.
Far too many Oscar-winning actors have discovered the hard way that it does nothing to secure quality work in memorable movies. Even Whoopie Goldberg won the Oscar and here she is on STAR TREK waiting tables. Who, outside of fandom, remembers her in this capacity - hat and all? The rare few, I'd imagine. And oh, by the way ... some of the hate displayed, here, for INSURRECTION has taken me by surprise!
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Old November 16 2013, 03:19 PM   #25
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
And oh, by the way ... some of the hate displayed, here, for INSURRECTION has taken me by surprise!
Not hate. I just don't think it was a very good movie. I rank it 12th out of the twelve Star Trek movies.

The moral dilemma is forced, the Ba'ku immensely unlikable and Picard's actions are driven mainly by wanting a piece of ass. The crew was never in any real danger and the lack of internal dissent over Picard's actions robbed the film of any real drama.

I liked the "Gilbert & Sullivan" routine, the face stretching was cool and the cinematography during the planet scenes was awesome.

Insurrection was a lesson in how not to make a movie. With a release date chosen and locked-in before they had even hired a writer and the stars (Stewart & Spiner) having too much say.
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Old November 16 2013, 05:13 PM   #26
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Lance wrote: View Post
On some level I do wonder just how bad things 'got' that the Federation would sell out it's morals to a group so obviously bad as the Son'a.
From Insurrection, Picard: "In view of our losses to the Borg and the Dominion, the Council feels we need all the allies we can get these days."

During the second world war American allied herself with the Soviet Union, we subsequently found out that they were much worse than the Nazis. In term of the amount of harm that they could do, the Sona were no-where near as bad as the Dominion, or even the Cardassians. And it's possible that additional information on the Sona was discovered after the partnership between the Federation and the Sona was already established.

Sran wrote: View Post
The irony was that the Son'a were in bed with the Dominion at the same time.
From Insurrection, Riker: "The Son'a are known to have produced vast quantities of the narcotic ketracel-white."

When Riker said that the Sona were producing the narcotic ketracel-white, what I got from Riker's use of the term "narcotic" is he meant that the Sona were not providing it to the Dominion, but were selling it interstellar as a street drug. If Ketracel-white were to have a similar effect upon the majority of Humanoids as it does on the Jem'hadar (including addiction) it would be like crack. Energy, strength, endurance, no sleep, added plus a maniac willingness to kill.

Ketracel-white can not be replicated, and might be the latest trendy "recreational" drug in the Alpha Quadrant.

Other than the mention of the white, no connection between the Sona and the Dominion was brought up.

Lance wrote: View Post
But it'd be interesting to see some the ramifications of that war. Were there Federation member worlds for example who actually seceded from the Federation?
It would have been interesting subject to have explored, better handled in DS9 episodes though.

I just don't buy it as believable that they'd fall in with the Son'a, given that the Son'a are drawn in the movie as being such genuinely nasty guys (and unashamedly so).
The Sona conquered two species, and that was a half century before. The Federation has an mutual defense treaty with the Klingon Empire, who also engage in conquest.

The Sona took the two conquered species and made them into a labor class within the Sona society. One of the Federation's members (the Ardanans) also had a labor class on their world.

If you think about it, what is unusual in the least about the Federation doing business with the Sona?


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Old November 16 2013, 05:40 PM   #27
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

BillJ wrote: View Post
The moral dilemma is forced, the Ba'ku immensely unlikable and Picard's actions are driven mainly by wanting a piece of ass. The crew was never in any real danger and the lack of internal dissent over Picard's actions robbed the film of any real drama.
Yeah, anyone sensible would just say to the Ba'ku... hey this medical technobabble's gonna save billions of lives. You mind giving up your immortality for this? But no, can't have that without your perceived victims looking like asses(more so than they already did), or ending the movie.

T'Girl wrote: View Post

If you think about it, what is unusual in the least about the Federation doing business with the Sona?


Because the movie says they're the -bad- guys. I mean you'd never see a good guy bleeding on Picard's carpet so menacingly.

For bad guys they really were tame compared to any other villain. They made every effort to keep the Ba'ku alive until Picard's continued resistance just pissed off Ru'afo to the point where he said screw it.
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Old November 16 2013, 05:45 PM   #28
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

I think the movie would've been better as a Starfleet vs. Starfleet drama and completely removing the S'ona from the film.
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Old November 16 2013, 05:57 PM   #29
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

BillJ wrote: View Post
I think the movie would've been better as a Starfleet vs. Starfleet drama and completely removing the S'ona from the film.

I like that idea. If nothing else, it would've removed a lot of the plot holes about the whole Baku-Son'a thing.(like how did the Baku kick them off planet? Why didn't the Son'a settle somewhere else in the intervening years? Don't they have an equal right to the planet? etc.)

Actually yeah, your idea makes for a smarter and better movie.
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Old November 17 2013, 01:36 AM   #30
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

sonak wrote: View Post

Actually yeah, your idea makes for a smarter and better movie.
Unfortunately, no one asked me and my idea is fifteen years too late. Hindsight is indeed 20/20.
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