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View Poll Results: Grade the movie...
A+ 28 11.16%
A 53 21.12%
A- 46 18.33%
B+ 25 9.96%
B 27 10.76%
B- 11 4.38%
C+ 13 5.18%
C 12 4.78%
C- 9 3.59%
D+ 8 3.19%
D 10 3.98%
D- 5 1.99%
F 4 1.59%
Voters: 251. You may not vote on this poll

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Old November 16 2013, 12:00 AM   #1336
davejames
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

Gojira wrote: View Post
Sure they could have written a more traditional scene where Superman stops Zod without killing him, I like the fact they they took a different route and did something unexpected. I don't see Superman's reaction to killing Zod as being hammy. I thought it was good acting and emotional.
Agreed. The fact it was so bold and unexpected is why I actually LIKE the scene. It was a defining moment, and his anguished reaction afterwards (after stopping a mass-murderer who was killing thousands, no less) only proves that this is a superhero who takes this stuff much more seriously than most.

Having Supes simply knock Zod out cold or throw him into the Phantom Zone wouldn't have been nearly as powerful or compelling.
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Old November 16 2013, 01:25 AM   #1337
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

A+

Got the DVD and loved it!
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Old November 16 2013, 01:29 AM   #1338
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

davejames wrote: View Post

Yes, already. Zod could have moved his eyes, but the movie made it pretty clear that he was only threatening to kill the family so Superman would kill him instead. Since Krypton had been destroyed for good and his programming gave him no other purpose or reason to live. Which is what he tells Superman. And why he threatens to continue killing until he is stopped.

Not sure how much clearer they could have spelled things out.
Ovation wrote: View Post
[Q
Pretty much. I really fail to see where any confusion lies about this moment in the film. Zod wants Kal to kill him.
Way back when, I used the phrase "suicide by cop," only to have the idea contemptuously dimissed. Moreover, are you really sure you like this idea? After all, if Zod wants to be killed, why should Superman feel bad for giving Zod what he wanted. It was a mercy killing, really. Why not give Zod a little win, since he couldn't win big? Since it was Zod's total choice, Superman angsting so much is kind of pussy, self indulging emo.

It's not like he couldn't have felt anguished at the human casualties, right?

Snyder and Goyer and Nolan and whoever thought crunching up buildings was fun to watch (and again, there were enough of us so bored as to wonder about the people off screen because those scenes felt like they just went on and on.) And similarly, they thought the hero killing the villain was fun to watch. But for some of us that wasn't our idea of a hero, at least not one so powerful. Everything else from them I think is just rationalization.
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Old November 16 2013, 01:51 AM   #1339
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

In a way it's funny. For years people wanted to see a knockdown drag out fight with Superman in a live action film. When we finally got it the most common descriptor of it was "boring".

Sometimes having a thing is not so pleasing as wanting a thing.
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Old November 16 2013, 01:54 AM   #1340
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

It's all in the execution. And I was never one of those people, FWIW. The heart of Superman is about saving people, not hitting them.
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Old November 16 2013, 02:02 AM   #1341
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

The movie is definitely a lot more action-heavy than I probably would have preferred, but I still think it works well. The idea of him being tested in battle-- and having to learn his powers completely on the fly with the fate of the world at stake-- is a pretty compelling one, I think.
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Old November 16 2013, 02:13 AM   #1342
The Old Mixer
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

The basic idea is sound, but the execution is sloppy and lazy, for reasons that others have articulated time and again. The action half of the film is heavy on the spectacle, but light on storytelling.
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Old November 16 2013, 02:20 AM   #1343
Ovation
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

stj wrote: View Post
davejames wrote: View Post

Yes, already. Zod could have moved his eyes, but the movie made it pretty clear that he was only threatening to kill the family so Superman would kill him instead. Since Krypton had been destroyed for good and his programming gave him no other purpose or reason to live. Which is what he tells Superman. And why he threatens to continue killing until he is stopped.

Not sure how much clearer they could have spelled things out.
Ovation wrote: View Post
[Q
Pretty much. I really fail to see where any confusion lies about this moment in the film. Zod wants Kal to kill him.
Way back when, I used the phrase "suicide by cop," only to have the idea contemptuously dimissed. Moreover, are you really sure you like this idea? After all, if Zod wants to be killed, why should Superman feel bad for giving Zod what he wanted. It was a mercy killing, really. Why not give Zod a little win, since he couldn't win big? Since it was Zod's total choice, Superman angsting so much is kind of pussy, self indulging emo.
What a load of bollocks. There is no contradiction between Superman killing Zod, thereby giving Zod what he wanted, and regretting the need, as he saw it, to do so.



Snyder and Goyer and Nolan and whoever thought crunching up buildings was fun to watch (and again, there were enough of us so bored as to wonder about the people off screen because those scenes felt like they just went on and on.)
And many more who were not bored. Your point (except for tedious repetition)?


And similarly, they thought the hero killing the villain was fun to watch. But for some of us that wasn't our idea of a hero, at least not one so powerful. Everything else from them I think is just rationalization.
Really? You got a "Hell, yeah!!" vibe from that scene? You really think that's the tone the filmmakers were attempting to create? If so, you were not watching the same film I (or anyone else in the packed cinema where I was) was. There was no celebratory tone in that moment--none.
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Old November 16 2013, 03:10 AM   #1344
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
The basic idea is sound, but the execution is sloppy and lazy, for reasons that others have articulated time and again. The action half of the film is heavy on the spectacle, but light on storytelling.
Pretty much. There's good action, and then there's lazy, sloppy, inherent action (which Man of Steel has an overabundance of). Superman Returns didn't have enough action according to some fans, so WB/Snyder over-compensated with a film that had too much action. There's a nice compromise somewhere.
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Old November 16 2013, 03:41 AM   #1345
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

Ovation wrote: View Post
Your point (except for tedious repetition)?
The point of course is that there are criticisms to be made of the film that are neither nit-picking nor contrarian, about what's entertaining. Admitted, the refusal to accept that gets tedious.

Really? You got a "Hell, yeah!!" vibe from that scene? You really think that's the tone the filmmakers were attempting to create? If so, you were not watching the same film I (or anyone else in the packed cinema where I was) was. There was no celebratory tone in that moment--none.
Yes, the scene was meant for those who enjoy seeing the villain die. That's why the script clumsily saved Zod from disappearing with the others; that's why the script clumsily set Zod up for suicide; that's why the script set up a supposed dramatic choice that wasn't a choice at all, robbing the whole exercise of any genuine meaning.

So what if Superman suffers? It would make it altogether too obvious what was going on if he chuckled and quipped. But if he suffers, you get double your pleasure: Hero Kills Villain and Suffering Hero. You've let your stubborness in refusing to tolerate criticism lead you into denying that people can't enjoy suffering hero fantasies. As you said, what a load of bullocks.

This nonsense makes it a little hard to forget that Man of Steel did some things, especially Lois, very well.
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Old November 16 2013, 03:54 AM   #1346
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

davejames wrote: View Post
Gaith wrote: View Post
Yup. Instead of giving us a really compelling scene, in which, say, the Jor-El hologram tells Clark he must use lethal force against Zod, and have Clark have to deal with that idea before the big battle, a totally manufactured moment is just dropped in at the end there, because interesting dialogue scenes are for pansies, I guess. Besides, can't Zod move his eyeballs while in the headlock?
Yes, already. Zod could have moved his eyes, but the movie made it pretty clear that he was only threatening to kill the family so Superman would kill him instead. Since Krypton had been destroyed for good and his programming gave him no other purpose or reason to live. Which is what he tells Superman. And why he threatens to continue killing until he is stopped.

Not sure how much clearer they could have spelled things out.
Of course it wouldn't have taken much more than a few creative thinking sessions to write an ending where Kal-El renders Zod unconscious and then cryo-freezes him in the fortress of solitude--or returns him to the phantom zone. Grant Morrison would have found a way.
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Old November 16 2013, 04:36 AM   #1347
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

But they didn't want a Grant Morrison plot, did they?
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Old November 16 2013, 05:01 AM   #1348
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

theenglish wrote: View Post
davejames wrote: View Post
Gaith wrote: View Post
Yup. Instead of giving us a really compelling scene, in which, say, the Jor-El hologram tells Clark he must use lethal force against Zod, and have Clark have to deal with that idea before the big battle, a totally manufactured moment is just dropped in at the end there, because interesting dialogue scenes are for pansies, I guess. Besides, can't Zod move his eyeballs while in the headlock?
Yes, already. Zod could have moved his eyes, but the movie made it pretty clear that he was only threatening to kill the family so Superman would kill him instead. Since Krypton had been destroyed for good and his programming gave him no other purpose or reason to live. Which is what he tells Superman. And why he threatens to continue killing until he is stopped.

Not sure how much clearer they could have spelled things out.
Of course it wouldn't have taken much more than a few creative thinking sessions to write an ending where Kal-El renders Zod unconscious and then cryo-freezes him in the fortress of solitude--or returns him to the phantom zone. Grant Morrison would have found a way.
They were going to just take the lazy, easy way out and dump Zod back in the Phantom Zone but then changed their minds and went for something unexpected and human.
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Old November 16 2013, 06:00 AM   #1349
davejames
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

theenglish wrote: View Post
Of course it wouldn't have taken much more than a few creative thinking sessions to write an ending where Kal-El renders Zod unconscious and then cryo-freezes him in the fortress of solitude--or returns him to the phantom zone. Grant Morrison would have found a way.
Wow. Knocking him unconscious and freezing him. Powerful and dramatic stuff.
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Old November 16 2013, 06:50 AM   #1350
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Re: MAN OF STEEL - Grading & Discussion

Gojira wrote: View Post

Sure they could have written a more traditional scene where Superman stops Zod without killing him, I like the fact they they took a different route and did something unexpected. I don't see Superman's reaction to killing Zod as being hammy. I thought it was good acting and emotional.

Or Superman could have ambiguously just thrown him into a pit of mist and clouds like in Superman II.

I love that movie, but come on! That scene doesn't bother me it is just ironic that people complain that Superman kills Zod in this movie and yet it is implied that he killed him in Superman II but because it is shown in such a "G" rated manner nobody bats an eye.
I thought that scene in SM II was weird, but come on. He could have been throwing him into anything. I've always just assumed it was some kind of prison, or somehow putting the back in the negative zone. Based on the tone of the other movies, I doubt he was supposed to have been killing them.

Anyway, Superman not killing is part of the character. Pre Gritty DC reboot, He would never kill Zod. Zod could be shooting his eyes at Lois or Ma Kent and he wouldn't snap his neck. But, comic superman was also a hopeful person and had personality, so maybe its not a good compariosn. Still, its like I said. The Zod neck snap is exactly the same as if Batman had just shot Bane with a gun in TDK Rises. Its an action that is totally against everything the hero is about. You could probably find a time in the golden age where superman killed someone, or bizarre rare occurrences of idiot writers doing it in more modern times. On the same token, Batman used a guy on Darkseid in Final Crisis (it was a super science gun, and it was already established that Darkseid would survive into the 31 century so he wasn't actually killing him, but it still kind of counts).

But, its still the most anti superman thing ever. The point of superman isn't to make him super realistic (which they didn't, but they tried). He's supposed to be a hopeful guy, a guy so good that he's literally a superhuman. He doesn't kill, and he saves the day. Making him (and the movie) dark and gritty was just a weird tone that didn't fit the character, and the killing was part of that. They definately have an uphill battle to make Superman/Batman good. I'm hoping they do something with superman realizing that he was wrong, and vowing to never kill again (maybe batman can teach him that lesson). That would atleast make the death not just a pointless moment for people who think every hero should kill the villains Otherwise it becomes a comedy sketch, with Superman just snapping every villain's neck. If he'll do it with Zod with no real hesitation (and he really didn't hesitate, he didn't even try to move Zod or stop him, he just yelled at Zod few times) he has absolutely no reason to not snap everyone's neck. If he can justify Zod, he can easily justify killing any bad guy he comes across, from muggers to supervillains
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