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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old November 15 2013, 06:27 PM   #16
siskokid888
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Re: On Second Thought....

^Agree 100% BillJ. Some of the naysayers remind me of the kids over in Williamsburg, where SUCCESS automatically means BAD. Sure, not all successful films are neccesarily good, but if you have continued success, you must be doing something right.
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Old November 15 2013, 06:46 PM   #17
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Re: On Second Thought....

BillJ wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
It IS pretty pro-nuTrek compared to other places I've posted. I was actually very surprised when I found that out here by looking at the polls with "A" scoring the most, and then the many members who posted showing great support Abrams, Orci, Kurtzman, Lindelof, "box office success!", "they scored high on Rotten Tomatoes!". Over at CHUD, they're usually referred to as The Four Horsemen, mainly because all of their output along with nuTrek has been recognized as awful and that they tend to push aside better/talented writers out of projects because they have more power in Hollywood due to box office successes.
Rotten Tomatoes with 230,000+ people voting is a far more statistically significant sample than either the 700 people who have voted here or the 100 people who voted at the Vegas Con and likely far more than voted at CHUD.com (whatever that is).
I was talking about the consensus in forums I visit compared to this one, that's all. You don't have to remind me of the RT rating. I'm simply giving an observation from personal experience, not using their consensus to prove that nuTrek is actually terrible.

Some people here seem offended that Abrams and Company have made Star Trek fun and accessible to general audiences again. Which I really don't understand and probably never will. Is it really their fault that Trek got so bogged down in minutiae that it drove general audiences away?
Here's the thing: I don't care what general audiences think of Trek at all, so I'm not at all offended that they like nuTrek. If they like it, fine. I'm glad they got something out of it. I don't like nuTrek. This isn't me being some sort of contrarian, it's going by my own gut, my own opinion. What most audiences think is "fun and accessible" (TRANSFORMERS) I call dumb and obnoxious, and nuTrek isn't really all that different to my eyes. I'll give the films credit when they get things right, as I don't trash them entirely. I love the opening of STID, and I wish the film had been more like that rather than dredging up Khan because "he's Star Trek's Joker". I also wish that these films wouldn't be so damned insistent on cramming as much action as they do every couple of minutes just to fill in time for what is (in my opinion) a very weak story.
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Old November 15 2013, 07:03 PM   #18
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Re: On Second Thought....

siskokid888 wrote: View Post
Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
All of this has been addressed months ago, try reading through a few of the threads here.
Sorry, I only drop from time to time. My apologies if I'm being repetitive.
Not a problem. If you recently rewatched the movie and wanted to post some new impressions, this is the place where you can do that.

Ln X wrote: View Post
NeedleOfInquiry wrote: View Post
I agree with all of your points, Sisko. But, you're preaching to the choir, this board is surprisingly pro-JJ.
Or maybe they are all still recovering from TATV...
It is not, however, the place to take swipes at groups of fans who may hold an opinion which differs from your own. I believe I may have mentioned this to you before.
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Old November 15 2013, 07:21 PM   #19
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Re: On Second Thought....

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Here's the thing: I don't care what general audiences think of Trek at all, so I'm not at all offended that they like nuTrek. If they like it, fine. I'm glad they got something out of it. I don't like nuTrek. This isn't me being some sort of contrarian, it's going by my own gut, my own opinion. What most audiences think is "fun and accessible" (TRANSFORMERS) I call dumb and obnoxious, and nuTrek isn't really all that different to my eyes.
I really don't care what general audiences think either beyond needing them to buy tickets so more Star Trek is made.

But here's my point: I'm not a fan of Star Trek: First Contact. I think it betrays what TNG was in favor of an action oriented format, it ruined the Borg and gave us the ugliest Starship Enterprise ever. However, it's silly for me to try and argue that it was some kind of failure as it sold a ton of movie tickets (ensuring even more Trek) and general audiences really seem to like it as well as most Trek fans.

Nor do I think it's fair to be abusive to the creative team behind the film or imply people who like it are idiots because a Trek film didn't scratch my particular itch.
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Old November 15 2013, 07:28 PM   #20
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Re: On Second Thought....

BillJ wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
It IS pretty pro-nuTrek compared to other places I've posted. I was actually very surprised when I found that out here by looking at the polls with "A" scoring the most, and then the many members who posted showing great support Abrams, Orci, Kurtzman, Lindelof, "box office success!", "they scored high on Rotten Tomatoes!". Over at CHUD, they're usually referred to as The Four Horsemen, mainly because all of their output along with nuTrek has been recognized as awful and that they tend to push aside better/talented writers out of projects because they have more power in Hollywood due to box office successes.
Rotten Tomatoes with 230,000+ people voting is a far more statistically significant sample than either the 700 people who have voted here or the 100 people who voted at the Vegas Con and likely far more than voted at CHUD.com (whatever that is).
User ratings on Rotten Tomatoes are about as useful as YouTube comments. If you're viewing a page for a movie after the movie has come out you're not part of the general audience. You're most likely a fan and that's why almost every movie on Rotten Tomatoes has a positive user rating. Even After Earth is sitting at near 40% positive with a 2.9/5 rating.

I agree that Into Darkness was well received by general audiences, but the user ratings on that site should be ignored.
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Old November 15 2013, 07:33 PM   #21
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Re: On Second Thought....

Kelthaz wrote: View Post
User ratings on Rotten Tomatoes are about as useful as YouTube comments. If you're viewing a page for a movie after the movie has come out you're not part of the general audience. You're most likely a fan and that's why almost every movie on Rotten Tomatoes has a positive user rating. Even After Earth is sitting at near 40% positive with a 2.9/5 rating.

I agree that Into Darkness was well received by general audiences, but the user ratings on that site should be ignored.
So you have 230,000+ fans who enjoyed the movie then. Which, to me, gives even less credence to those fans who say Abrams and Company are ruining the franchise.

But, I really haven't seen a bad review of the Abrams films outside of fan sites. So it seems we're down to some die-hards that are mad because we aren't getting more from the same people who brought us Insurrection and Nemesis.
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Old November 15 2013, 07:57 PM   #22
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Re: On Second Thought....

BillJ wrote: View Post
Kelthaz wrote: View Post
User ratings on Rotten Tomatoes are about as useful as YouTube comments. If you're viewing a page for a movie after the movie has come out you're not part of the general audience. You're most likely a fan and that's why almost every movie on Rotten Tomatoes has a positive user rating. Even After Earth is sitting at near 40% positive with a 2.9/5 rating.

I agree that Into Darkness was well received by general audiences, but the user ratings on that site should be ignored.
So you have 230,000+ fans who enjoyed the movie then. Which, to me, gives even less credence to those fans who say Abrams and Company are ruining the franchise.
And Transformers has 4,000,000+ fans with an 85% rating. That's like 20 times better than "Into Darkness". Clearly, that proves that the Transformers franchise is not ruined at all. You're trying to use popularity (derived from a very unreliable source) to discredit arguments from people who dislike the films. That's kinda rude. Popularity is completely irrelevant unless we're talking about the films from a business or financial point of view.
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Old November 15 2013, 08:16 PM   #23
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Re: On Second Thought....

The fact remains, a rather tiny minority of people are making the film an issue at all, and they all seem to be Trek fans, and on examination of their "arguments", there is a strong undercurrent of passive aggressive hate at the idea of a reboot at all.

And a stubborn insistance on not actually discussing anything, but rather taking large swipes at those movies and those who liked them. Making older Trek out to be a victim of "unintellgent masses" who can't appreciate it's "message", that it was some perfect pinnacle of story writing.

All the while ignoring the steaming pile it had become and how basically void of anything but cheesy rehashed nonsense it was. It's inevitable cancellation and need of a reboot to be viable to anyone but a tiny group of rabid "fans" who surprisingly don't seem to get very much right about the show they rewatched so much.
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Old November 15 2013, 08:24 PM   #24
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Re: On Second Thought....

Kelthaz wrote: View Post

And Transformers has 4,000,000+ fans with an 85% rating. That's like 20 times better than "Into Darkness". Clearly, that proves that the Transformers franchise is not ruined at all. You're trying to use popularity (derived from a very unreliable source) to discredit arguments from people who dislike the films. That's kinda rude. Popularity is completely irrelevant unless we're talking about the films from a business or financial point of view.
Do you have any proof that Rotten Tomatoes is an unreliable source? What exactly qualifies as a reliable source?

I'm not trying to discredit anyone's coherent arguments about the quality of the film. What I'm trying to do is show the whiny "Star Trek never did that" and the ones who claim "Abrams and Company are ruining the franchise" some perspective. I've said it at least a hundred times before and I'm sure I'll say it a hundred times again: Star Trek Into Darkness IS NOT a perfect movie, it has flaws but is damn fun to watch.
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Old November 15 2013, 10:22 PM   #25
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Re: On Second Thought....

^This is the major point of the discussion. Like you pointed out earlier (I believe), there are many variations on the Trek theme, from TV shows to films to comics to novels to web series, and I have enjoyed them ALL. They all represent different visions of Trek and, in my opinion, they are ALL valid, even if I didn't like some of them. Roddenberry's idea was, I believe, to say "here is the general outline. Now, fill it in". And different writers, directors, producers, and actors have filled in the lines differently. I'm not saying everyone has to like all of it. But to summarily dismiss someone's vision or interpetation of Roddenberry's universe as "destroying Trek" is, I think, off base.
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Old November 15 2013, 11:15 PM   #26
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Re: On Second Thought....

I'm not saying Trek is being destroyed, but I am not happy with the state of quality these films bring. The Pierce Brosnan James Bond films were very popular, but plenty of fans still criticized them for being subpar compared to what came before. Just becoming another generic action franchise, and I feel it's repeating here with Trek.
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Old November 15 2013, 11:20 PM   #27
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Re: On Second Thought....

I'll take advantage of this thread to bring up a couple of things I hadn't thought of before (on second thought), and I don't remember being posted here that occurred to me when I recently re-watched STID.

1. Just an observation. The stuff floating in the air like confetti in the scene where Khan attacks Starfleet HQ and in the scene on Kronos. Nice touch. Added visual texture to the scenes. Real weather.

2. What happened to the two "undercover" redshirts with Kirk, Spock, and Uhura on Kronos? Were they killed in the fire fight? Have I still missed the moment where they're shot or stabbed by a Klingon? If they died, this is historically important for the new universe, because it would mark Kirk's first two redshirt deaths.
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Old November 15 2013, 11:30 PM   #28
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Re: On Second Thought....

They survived, or at least one of them did. You can see "Cupcake" appear well after Khan was brought in his cell.
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Old November 15 2013, 11:35 PM   #29
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Re: On Second Thought....

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
I'm not saying Trek is being destroyed, but I am not happy with the state of quality these films bring. The Pierce Brosnan James Bond films were very popular, but plenty of fans still criticized them for being subpar compared to what came before. Just becoming another generic action franchise, and I feel it's repeating here with Trek.
I don't think that Star Trek under J.J. Abrams is becoming a generic action franchise. But they have ratcheted up the action, which makes it more in line with TOS than the later spin-offs on that count. Some people will like it, other won't. I'm not surprised as I've yet to see 100% of Star Trek fans agree on anything.

But... if it was becoming a generic action franchise, it would still be better than most of the last ten years of Berman's run. In my opinion.
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Old November 15 2013, 11:50 PM   #30
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Re: On Second Thought....

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
They survived, or at least one of them did. You can see "Cupcake" appear well after Khan was brought in his cell.
Ah. Thanks.
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