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Fan Productions Creating our own Trek canon!

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Old November 13 2013, 08:55 PM   #256
Ronald Held
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

If you are planning to have Axanar occur before the launch of the 1701 would the image of the ship in the Okudachron be of any use? If not observe how the Cage Enterprise differs from that of WNMHGB and age it backwards?
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Old November 14 2013, 08:47 AM   #257
Loken
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

batboy853 wrote: View Post
not to derail the conversation, but I dont think ive seen any canon source saying that Spock was the first Vulcan in Starfleet. Not even that he was the first to graduate the academy. this was something that fans imagined up outside of the show.
Absolutely correct. We had this conversation on Facebook and I researched and this is correct.

Still, there are no other races in TOS on the Enterprise, and TAS is not canon.

Alec
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Old November 14 2013, 01:45 PM   #258
CorporalCaptain
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

Loken wrote: View Post
batboy853 wrote: View Post
not to derail the conversation, but I dont think ive seen any canon source saying that Spock was the first Vulcan in Starfleet. Not even that he was the first to graduate the academy. this was something that fans imagined up outside of the show.
Absolutely correct. We had this conversation on Facebook and I researched and this is correct.

Still, there are no other races in TOS on the Enterprise, and TAS is not canon.

Alec
So, then, that also discredits both of your strange assumptions, that the Intrepid was not a Starfleet vessel, and that there were no aliens serving in Starfleet at the time of TOS (besides Spock).

With the idea that Spock was the first Vulcan in Starfleet dismissed, there is no reason in TOS outside of The Immunity Syndrome to suppose that Intrepid is not a Starfleet vessel. Moreover, within that episode, the facts that Starfleet is tracking her and is concerned about losing contact with her are both consistent with and suggestive of the idea that Intrepid is Starfleet.

Turning to JJTrek, the Kelvin is in Prime Universe continuity right up to the point of the Narada temporal incursion, and there are at least two non-humans serving aboard her.

By the way, since you bring up TAS, and regardless of whether you wish to draw on TAS continuity or to disregard it, it's now old news that CBS considers TAS to be canon. So, TAS is canon.

Loken wrote: View Post
1. There are no aliens whatsoever on the USS Enterprise in TOS. In fact there are none in Starfleet.

2. Spock is the first Vulcan in Starfleet.

3. The Vulcans fully crew the USS Intrepid (destroyed in the Immunity Syndrome). Thus, this must be under Vulcan control, not Starfleet.
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Last edited by CorporalCaptain; November 14 2013 at 06:56 PM. Reason: minor fix
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Old November 14 2013, 03:16 PM   #259
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

For what it's worth, the Star Trek Writers Guide (Third Revision, dated April 17, 1967) has the following comment:

"THE CREW: International in origin, completely multi-racial. But even in this future century, we will see some traditional trappings, ornaments, and styles that suggest the Asiatic, the Arabic, the Latin, etc. So far, Mister Spook has been our only crewman with blood lines from another planet. However, it is not impossible that we might discover some other aliens or part aliens working aboard our Starship."

The Making of Star Trek by Stephen E. Whitfield and Gene Roddenberry (from September of 1968) has similar content:

"The 430-man crew (approximately one third are females) is completely international and multiracial in makeup. There are even crewmembers from other planets. Although Mister Spock is the only alien crew member introduced so far, there are others who will make their appearance on future shows. The crew of each starship is predominantly of one type. The crew of some of these vessels is primarily human, others primarily Vulcan, and others perhaps something else. Each ship has a small percentage of aliens aboard, but the majority of the crew are usually of one type."
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Old November 14 2013, 06:53 PM   #260
lennier1
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

Strange, I've always considered the Starfleet of TOS closer to something like NATO.
Many planets working toward a common goal, but still with their own fleets to contribute to it. It's not until the movie era that the fleet is growing more and more together to the mixed one we know from the days beyond TNG.
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Old November 14 2013, 06:55 PM   #261
batboy853
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

Loken wrote: View Post
batboy853 wrote: View Post
not to derail the conversation, but I dont think ive seen any canon source saying that Spock was the first Vulcan in Starfleet. Not even that he was the first to graduate the academy. this was something that fans imagined up outside of the show.
Absolutely correct. We had this conversation on Facebook and I researched and this is correct.

Still, there are no other races in TOS on the Enterprise, and TAS is not canon.

Alec

As of June 27th 2007, it was made considered Canon with TPTB with star trek at the time. it was the same writers and same producers for the series as the rest of TOS. In addition there are species, and events that are referenced in other star trek series.

Official Star Trek website lists it as Canon.

while it is a children's show and not all episodes are to be taken seriously, it is not a reason to limit what you can do with your series....

just saying.
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Old November 14 2013, 07:39 PM   #262
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

We might leave out "Slaver Weapon" due to Larry Niven's involvement, but otherwise...
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Old November 15 2013, 08:29 PM   #263
Loken
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

lennier1 wrote: View Post
Strange, I've always considered the Starfleet of TOS closer to something like NATO.
Many planets working toward a common goal, but still with their own fleets to contribute to it. It's not until the movie era that the fleet is growing more and more together to the mixed one we know from the days beyond TNG.
A great analogy that I don't disagree with.


GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
For what it's worth, the Star Trek Writers Guide (Third Revision, dated April 17, 1967) has the following comment:

"THE CREW: International in origin, completely multi-racial. But even in this future century, we will see some traditional trappings, ornaments, and styles that suggest the Asiatic, the Arabic, the Latin, etc. So far, Mister Spook has been our only crewman with blood lines from another planet. However, it is not impossible that we might discover some other aliens or part aliens working aboard our Starship."

The Making of Star Trek by Stephen E. Whitfield and Gene Roddenberry (from September of 1968) has similar content:

"The 430-man crew (approximately one third are females) is completely international and multiracial in makeup. There are even crewmembers from other planets. Although Mister Spock is the only alien crew member introduced so far, there are others who will make their appearance on future shows. The crew of each starship is predominantly of one type. The crew of some of these vessels is primarily human, others primarily Vulcan, and others perhaps something else. Each ship has a small percentage of aliens aboard, but the majority of the crew are usually of one type."
True, but sadly the writers guide isn't even canon. Again, if it is not on screen it is not canon. That is according to CBS's Star Trek brand manager and generally agreed, by even the Okudas.

batboy853 wrote: View Post
Loken wrote: View Post
Still, there are no other races in TOS on the Enterprise, and TAS is not canon.

Alec
As of June 27th 2007, it was made considered Canon with TPTB with star trek at the time. it was the same writers and same producers for the series as the rest of TOS. In addition there are species, and events that are referenced in other star trek series.

Official Star Trek website lists it as Canon.

while it is a children's show and not all episodes are to be taken seriously, it is not a reason to limit what you can do with your series....

just saying.
Yeah, but not even CBS considers it canon. Think alternate universe if you wish. But as of last month when I asked the Star Trek brand manager, it was not canon.

Alec

Last edited by Loken; November 15 2013 at 08:44 PM.
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Old November 15 2013, 08:43 PM   #264
Loken
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
So, then, that also discredits both of your strange assumptions, that the Intrepid was not a Starfleet vessel, and that there were no aliens serving in Starfleet at the time of TOS (besides Spock).

With the idea that Spock was the first Vulcan in Starfleet dismissed, there is no reason in TOS outside of The Immunity Syndrome to suppose that Intrepid is not a Starfleet vessel. Moreover, within that episode, the facts that Starfleet is tracking her and is concerned about losing contact with her are both consistent with and suggestive of the idea that Intrepid is Starfleet.

Turning to JJTrek, the Kelvin is in Prime Universe continuity right up to the point of the Narada temporal incursion, and there are at least two non-humans serving aboard her.

By the way, since you bring up TAS, and regardless of whether you wish to draw on TAS continuity or to disregard it, it's now old news that CBS considers TAS to be canon. So, TAS is canon.

I believe I corrected myself. The Intrepid may have been a Starfleet vessel. On the other hand, it may have been a Federation vessel as Starfleet may well only be an Earth organization (Note that Kirk says that they are under the authority of UESPA)

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Unit...e_Probe_Agency

My point was that it appears at the time of TOS that crews are generally NOT integrated. Spock is the only alien on the Enterprise, and the Intrepid is all Vulcan.

And despite what you claim, TAS is NOT canon according to CBS. As I said, I know the CBS brand manager for Star Trek, who is responsible for everything Star Trek licensing wise, including the books. He is a total Star Trek geek and he says that CBS does not consider TAS canon. It is canon within TAS but not outside.

Alec
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Old November 15 2013, 09:15 PM   #265
feek61
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

I always thought that the "Intrepid" was another starship class vessel like the "Enterprise." I guess it's because Spock mentions that over 400 Vulcan's died which is the same crew compliment as the "Enterprise." I guess I just never really thought it could be another type of vessel. Funny how we get these things locked in our mind, lol
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Old November 15 2013, 11:11 PM   #266
doubleohfive
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

It could also be argued as well that the difference between UESPA and Starfleet is entirely superficial and that at the time the writers of the show had simply not settled on a definitive name for the organization our heroes all worked for, and that subsequent retconning is responsible for the differentiation.

I see no reason why (especially given the points raised about the aliens on the Kelvin during the pre-divergence in Star Trek (2009) that Starfleet vessels can't have multispecies crews. Nor do I understand this silly insistence that The Animated Series is not canon.

Fuck that noise. These fan films aren't canon either so I have to ask -- Who really cares?
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Old November 16 2013, 03:43 AM   #267
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

I think that when the Torah of officially-produced Star Trek is silent on an issue, the Talmud of the Writers’ Guides, Directors’ Guides, and scripts can provide valuable commentary on original intent. It would be a shame to not take advantage of their important content. That’s what we've done on our show.
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Old November 16 2013, 04:26 AM   #268
Barbreader
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
I think that when the Torah of officially-produced Star Trek is silent on an issue, the Talmud of the Writers’ Guides, Directors’ Guides, and scripts can provide valuable commentary on original intent. It would be a shame to not take advantage of their important content. That’s what we've done on our show.
Judging from some conversations I have just had on facebook, I suspect many of your readers won't have a clue what you are talking about. Not concerning Trek, but concerning "Torah" and "Talmud".
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Old November 16 2013, 05:21 AM   #269
Captain Atkin
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

doubleohfive wrote: View Post
I see no reason why (especially given the points raised about the aliens on the Kelvin during the pre-divergence in Star Trek (2009) that Starfleet vessels can't have multispecies crews. Nor do I understand this silly insistence that The Animated Series is not canon.
?
I believe Gene Roddenberry said that the only episode of TAS that was canon (to him) was Yesteryear. I enjoy all the cartoons, but Yesteryear is the most mature story told in that series, and it stands on its own. As for multi-species crews, that only reason we didn't see that on the Enterprise was because of the TV show's budget. We certainly saw lots of aliens in Starfleet uniforms in Star Trek: The Motion Picture. I'm sure that there was plenty of aliens out there wearing TOS uniforms on other ships. We just never saw them.
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Old November 16 2013, 05:32 AM   #270
Loken
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

CANON

Ultimately what is and what is not canon has absolutely no relevance to anything, but the argument of what is and what is not canon.

The CBS brand manager also said that canon can be personal to each individual and what they want to include in THEIR interpretation of Trek. So think what you like.

However, the official CBS position is TAS is NOT canon. The only "silly insistence" is arguing that it is since you have no facts to base that on and it contradicts what the only authority with a valid opinion, the IP rights holder, has.

UESPA / Starfleet

Well, again, it is clear that UESPA is the authority called "Starfleet Command" in Enterprise. UESPA is also the authority mentioned in several episodes of TOS, eventually being referred to as Starfleet Command. Starfleet is authorized and under the authority of EARTH, not the Federation. The Vulcans have their own ship, the Intrepid in "Immunity Syndrome". So it seems that the Federation members had separate ships, porbably each under command of the member worlds, but working together. And one can assume that is why we see almost no Andorians or Tellarites on Starfleet ships. But we know there CAN be aliens in Starfleet, Spock is evidence.

And at some point Starfleet Command becomes THE Federation fleet.

So the decision to keep ships with mostly distinct crews in Axanar is consistent with what we have seen for the time period.

Alec
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