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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old November 14 2013, 05:08 AM   #361
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Okay, we're back!

When we went to commercial, a Large Cloud of Bad Writing was headed directly for Earth...

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Everytime something has happened to or is headed toward Earth, there's no other ships around to address the issue.
Wrong!

Sort of.

(Sorry, this is going to get a little long.)

For my money the most legit example of this comes from ST:TMP, where Enterprise is "the only ship in the quadrant" as V'Ger approaches Earth. For the others:

Take STIII for example: When they stole the Enterprise, where was the ships waiting on the other side of the space doors? One, prototype starship, and that's it? They had enough time to call alert, warm up the Excelsior, and chase after them. Yet: where's the patrol fleets? Spacedock tractor beams?
Partial point to you: it is suspiciously easy to hijack ships from Starfleet. Also (arguably) horrifically out of character for Starfleet officers, but yes, suspiciously easy.

Star Trek VI: Kirk, a convicted assassin has escaped, he's heading for the conference. He starts firing on a Klingon ship. Excelsior joins in. Yet, no other Starfleet ships or Klingon ships respond?
Took place around Khitomer rather than Earth, other ship fired on both him and Excelsior multiple times before they fired back. Not technically an example of the trope... but it is legitimately quite weird that no other ships seem to be around. Another partial point.

Nemesis is another one
I blacked out most of Nemesis during my subsequent bender, so I'll concede this one on principle.

And that's not counting the whole "Only ship in the sector" BS. Or Starfleeet being braindead enough to send the 1701-A to Nimbus III instead of parking Kirk's ass on another ship. Or shipping out the Enterprise-B with half the damn ship unfinished.
Well, none of those are examples of the Earth trope. But yes, they're all completely legit examples of bad Trek writing, for sure.

Then there's Preston and Riker's super-cloak, which the Romulans seem to take in stride, and nothing ever happens to anyone but Preston
Multiple levels of bizarre in that episode. Frankly my sympathies were with Preston, the TNG Federation was forever signing high-minded treaties that made no practical, moral or strategic sense at all.

So yes, that gives us a pretty good sampling of questionable writing decisions of yore. However, of these, only two (and a half counting ST:TSFS) are actually examples of the Federation leaving Earth near-defenseless. And do they add up to:

Starfleet does not act in anyway that could be called rational ro reasonable.
That's a wormhole too far for me, although movie Starfleet illogic got worse and worse as the original cast movies went on. Actually, though, most other stories involving threats to Earth do show Starfleet attempting to defend Earth in fairly logical fashion: ST:TVH shows the-poor-whale's-V'ger disabling a significant network of ships and stations en route to Earth (yes, the story is still calibrated to leave Kirk the only one who can save the day, but the defenses are there); Best of Both Worlds features an epic attempted holding action at a neighbouring system (in a famous sequence ripped off far less logically, albeit stylishly, in ST09); First Contact has a large battle over Earth itself; the Breen attack on Earth in DS9 has to penetrate heavy defenses with heavy losses to inflict any damage, and so on.

It is true that a couple of lacklustre efforts do provide precedent for the (as usual, more exaggerated) version of the nuTrek trope. I wouldn't go from there to saying that that is "fairly standard" Trek storytelling. Let's not let the NuTrek, as it were, be the enemy of the good.
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Last edited by BigSnake; November 14 2013 at 04:47 PM.
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Old November 14 2013, 06:56 AM   #362
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Said this upthread: STID feels like two movies compressed into a single one. The last act feels like a lot of sequel concepts that were cored and compressed into final act of the first film.
With apologies for the multi-quote fail, I've been thinking this over and it does strike me as a really interesting take on some puzzling aspects of STiD. I'm going to cogitate on it some more, but, thank you for that.
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Old November 14 2013, 02:18 PM   #363
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
I enjoyed The Island,
So did I, only it wasn't called "The Island". It was called "The Clonus Horror", a 1979 low budget movie that revolves around the same storyline. The Director/screenwriter who made Clonus actually brought a copyright infringement suit against the makers of the "The Island", and won. So Robert Orci and Alex Kurtzman now share a writing credit for a movie that was a literal rip off. That's the kind of talent we want for the Star Trek franchise. They're already doing a good job at ripping themselves off.
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Old November 14 2013, 02:37 PM   #364
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote:
So yes to brown face and a Spanish accent for character who's supposed to be a Sikh and an Indian?
It's decades later, and I'm assuming they could have found an actor who would have actually been Indian (or at least a very close visual match).
That would be my choice, but on the other hand I wouldn't want to telegraph: HEY EVERYBODY IT'S KHAN!!!! So casting a non Indian makes some sense.
Given the abundant spoilers available, I would be surprised if the audience didn't already know, or at least suspect. Therefore, why not cast an Indian actor?

Not really, since author's intent is she's an "expert". The writers obviously aren't, though.
The writers told us she's an expert. Beyond her initial attempt to coax Khan into talking about the 20th century, I wasn't convinced she was anything but a semi-talented painter who was far too emotionally invested to even begin to be objective (real historians do need to be objective and follow the facts, not their personal biases).

I can't imagine that the entire Sikh population and knowledge of them would be wiped out in the Eugenics Wars.
It doesn't have to be 100% loss; just enough information to give future historians an incomplete or incorrect conclusion would be sufficient for Marla to make a mistake.

The first two books were fanwankery to the extreme. The third book was excellent.
The first two books make it plain that Khan was born in India, to an Indian mother
I don't recall saying they didn't. As I said, I've read the books. Any book that includes every ST character mentioned to be alive in the 20th or early 21st Century as well as appearances by Hadji and Jamie Sommers is pretty much the definition of fanwank.
I won't argue that at the end of Khan's reign, just about everything was thrown in, including the kitchen sink. But I found it fun to see how it could all be tied together somehow.
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Old November 14 2013, 02:41 PM   #365
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
The Director/screenwriter who made Clonus actually brought a copyright infringement suit against the makers of the "The Island", and won.
No, a settlement was reached.
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Old November 14 2013, 02:47 PM   #366
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post
The Director/screenwriter who made Clonus actually brought a copyright infringement suit against the makers of the "The Island", and won.
No, a settlement was reached.
And who was on the receiving end of that settlement? Sounds like Robert S. Fiveson got what he set out to do. If that's not a win, I don't know what is. And he sure was thankful to a particular fan base who helped bring awareness to this case.
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Old November 14 2013, 02:53 PM   #367
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post
The Director/screenwriter who made Clonus actually brought a copyright infringement suit against the makers of the "The Island", and won.
No, a settlement was reached.
And who was on the receiving end of that settlement? Sounds like Robert S. Fiveson got what he set out to do. If that's not a win, I don't know what is. And he sure was thankful to a particular fan base who helped bring awareness to this case.
Dunno, do you? The terms of the settlement were sealed. Your statements about who got what versus who didn't are pure speculation. As a matter of law, the lawsuit was not won. Period.

That said, a settlement generally doesn't happen unless both parties agree to it. Hence, the word settlement.
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Old November 14 2013, 03:29 PM   #368
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Dunno, do you? The terms of the settlement were sealed. Your statements about who got what versus who didn't are pure speculation.
No. Robert S. Fiveson said in an interview on the MST3K Vol. 12 that the settlement ended in a seven figure deal. Would you prefer I change what I said to "won in a settlement", because I'm not trying to deceive anyone here.

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
That said, a settlement generally doesn't happen unless both parties agree to it. Hence, the word settlement.
Yeah. Both sides agreed that "The Island" was a rip off of "The Clonus Horror" and both parties agreed that the party who did the ripping off (Dreamworks) had to pay for it. If you think for a moment that Fiveson didn't win anything, go watch that interview. He is practically thanking the the fans of Mystery Science Theater 3000 for helping spread awareness to this fact online. And keep in mind that MST3K is a show that MOCKED "The Clonus Horror" in it's entirety. Quite the gentlemen when compared to Robert Orci, who will tell fans who didn't like his work to F off.
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Old November 14 2013, 03:42 PM   #369
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
The writers told us she's an expert. Beyond her initial attempt to coax Khan into talking about the 20th century, I wasn't convinced she was anything but a semi-talented painter who was far too emotionally invested to even begin to be objective (real historians do need to be objective and follow the facts, not their personal biases).
Exactly, and when the writers tell us something like that, its usually true unless by the end of the episode it's proven wrong. Not by the writers having the character do stupid things, but by the the characters discovering the person is a fraud. The writers were working from a 60s view of women that includes "female urges" and a desire to find a man. So any short comings Marla has are laid at the feet of the writers, not the character. We can't rationalize that away.

It doesn't have to be 100% loss; just enough information to give future historians an incomplete or incorrect conclusion would be sufficient for Marla to make a mistake.
Yes, but that loss is a pretty significant one. One that includes all descriptions and images of Sikhs as well as texts describing them and their cultural practices.
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Old November 14 2013, 04:26 PM   #370
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Dunno, do you? The terms of the settlement were sealed. Your statements about who got what versus who didn't are pure speculation.
No. Robert S. Fiveson said in an interview on the MST3K Vol. 12 that the settlement ended in a seven figure deal. Would you prefer I change what I said to "won in a settlement", because I'm not trying to deceive anyone here.

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
That said, a settlement generally doesn't happen unless both parties agree to it. Hence, the word settlement.
Yeah. Both sides agreed that "The Island" was a rip off of "The Clonus Horror" and both parties agreed that the party who did the ripping off (Dreamworks) had to pay for it. If you think for a moment that Fiveson didn't win anything, go watch that interview. He is practically thanking the the fans of Mystery Science Theater 3000 for helping spread awareness to this fact online. And keep in mind that MST3K is a show that MOCKED "The Clonus Horror" in it's entirety. Quite the gentlemen when compared to Robert Orci, who will tell fans who didn't like his work to F off.
The info I have says that the settlement was sealed, so, evidently unlike you, I can't pretend to know what was agreed to.

I haven't seen the MST3K interview, so I can't comment on that, except what I say below.

I can cite this 2007 interview with Clonus author Bob Sullivan on The Agony Booth website [http://www.agonybooth.com/agonizer/i...eenwriter.aspx].

There's even a reply from Robert Fiveson at the end, who says he can't really say much, as you'd expect with respect to a sealed settlement.

In fact, the only person saying anything is the person who feels he's really getting the short end of the stick! Who is that? It's not Orci, et al., and nor is it DreamWorks. Nor, at least at the time of The Agony Booth interview, is it Robert Fiveson. Why, it's none other than original Clonus author Bob Sullivan himself!

So, forgive me for being skeptical that the interview on MST3K vol. 12 says exactly what you claim it does.

Why can't you just stick to the facts, which would be to say that "a settlement was reached"?

Oh, I know, there's an agenda here.
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Old November 14 2013, 04:48 PM   #371
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Surely not to one to put Orci and co. in a bad light?
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Old November 14 2013, 05:49 PM   #372
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Cara007 wrote: View Post
M'Sharak wrote: View Post
Cara007 wrote: View Post
Radom guy found this post from trekmovie:<snip>
If that's a post from TrekMovie, then perhaps you could provide a link to the page on which it appears?

Thank you. I will. Here is the link:

http://trekmovie.com/2013/11/11/summ...rek-3-tidbits/

His name is Oscar and he made this comment on post 221.

King Daniel the fact that you enjoyed all this films does not mean it will be a good thing for Trek at the box office. Just look at final frontier, Generations and Nemesis. A mixed reviewed trek film kills the film at the box office talk less of a film with very negative reviews.
I have no use for The Transformers movies (but, then I never understood the Transformers craze when they were just a cartoon and toys I thought were completely stupid), but, reviews, fan reaction, etc, certainly were no detriment for the Franchise, the movies made buckets of money and there's a 4th movie (and probably more) coming, so, that's not really a good example to use against Orci/Kurtzman without Abrams being detrimental to Star Trek.
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Old November 14 2013, 06:15 PM   #373
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Oh, I know, there's an agenda here.
And I'm bored.

Nerys Myk wrote:
The writers were working from a 60s view of women that includes "female urges" and a desire to find a man. So any short comings Marla has are laid at the feet of the writers, not the character. We can't rationalize that away.
I guess that's one of my strongest reasons why I don't want the writing team back. Their treatment of the female characters is just embarrassing. Sure, Uhura can speak Klingon and wants to resolve this dangerous situation in a diplomatic way, but this isn't an episode of Star Trek. This is a blockbuster action film, and when you pay for a huge set, Klingons with weapons and our characters armed with weapons, you're attempt to give Uhura a moment ends up being useless because you're writing her to fail.

But that doesn't really matter to a person like Robert Orci, who said in one of his trekmovie comments (#1147) that the one thing he did to improve this movie was "Got Uhura more into the action". All that meant was they got Uhura to use a knife and a gun. If that's all it takes to make her an awesome character, Alice from the Resident Evil movies should be considered the one of the best written characters in of our generation.
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Old November 14 2013, 06:27 PM   #374
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

By some folks over-simplification of the intentions of the writers in STiD, Ripley from the Alien franchise was a useless, one-dimensional character because she wielded weapons and ran about in her underwear.

What a bunch of sexist bastards!
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Old November 14 2013, 06:41 PM   #375
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote:
The writers were working from a 60s view of women that includes "female urges" and a desire to find a man. So any short comings Marla has are laid at the feet of the writers, not the character. We can't rationalize that away.
I guess that's one of my strongest reasons why I don't want the writing team back. Their treatment of the female characters is just embarrassing. Sure, Uhura can speak Klingon and wants to resolve this dangerous situation in a diplomatic way, but this isn't an episode of Star Trek. This is a blockbuster action film, and when you pay for a huge set, Klingons with weapons and our characters armed with weapons, you're attempt to give Uhura a moment ends up being useless because you're writing her to fail.
This doesn't even make any sense.

Anyway, I read what Nerys Myk wrote as being about the writers of Space Seed. Unless someone has a Ouija board, I'm pretty sure that neither Coon nor Wilber will be coming back!

a person like Robert Orci
Eh, he knows what he did.
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