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Old November 11 2013, 08:39 PM   #16
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Re: NBA Season - 2013-2014

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
All of that is to say that I've watched the Pacers, I've seen the team. From its 2-1 series lead on Miami in 2012 until now, I have said they are one of my favorite teams. I have been harping for 3 years that the Pistons should get Paul George. He's big, can get a step on you, can shoot over a defense, and plays the other side of the court. He shredded the Pistons in a game in 2012 (27 points, 10 rebounds) and it was the way he did it. Ben Gordon and Rodney Stuckey couldn't stay in front of him or get their own shot. He reminded me of a combination of Rip Hamilton's size, and Joe Dumars' game.

I knew last year's Conference Finals were going to be tough because the Pacers are strong where Miami is weak. It's a bad matchup from Miami's perspective. They are built to beat the Heat. I thought Danny Granger would be doing a lot more, but I underestimated Paul, even as I coveted him.

Good for the Pacers, off to a 7-0 start. I cannot wait to see them in prime time again. It warms my heart to see them win.
The Lakers reportedly (and unofficially) had expressed a keen interest in George if he became a free agent. Many Lakers' fans have coveted the guy for a while now and that was before he let it be known that Kobe was one of his basketball role models. All for naught though when he signed that extension with the Pacers.

Pacers, if they keep going well, are going to face what many NBA teams face when trying to move up to that next level. That one veteran team that always seems to be in the way. They are likely going to have to deal with the (now) playoff hardened Heat. I do think the Heat are vulnerable this season, making it to the Finals 4 straight times is a daunting task, but are the Pacers the team who can knock them off? We'll see. (And also keep in mind, it's VERY early.)
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Old November 11 2013, 11:47 PM   #17
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Re: NBA Season - 2013-2014

Well, tonight is my first Pistons game of the season. Portland is poachable and I will enjoy seeing the new look Pistons. Mo Cheeks is returning to the place where he coached in the last decade.

For those interested, here's a couple of videos to watch.


The "Motor City" jerseys are new, and this Boston game was their last win (2-3 entering a 5-game West-Coast swing. Brandon Jennings, Rodney Stuckey have been hurt, so they are still getting their horses back. I'm pumped up 4 hours before tipoff, so that's why I am posting, really. Anyone else going to be watching the game?

Last edited by HaventGotALife; November 12 2013 at 12:37 AM.
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Old November 12 2013, 02:50 PM   #18
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Re: NBA Season - 2013-2014

Markeiff Morris and Paul George named players of the Week. The Pacers are 8-0 so far this season. Steve Nash is out for two weeks. Derrick Rose pulled a hamstring in the Bulls latest game. And the parody across the league is ridiculous.
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Old November 12 2013, 08:38 PM   #19
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Re: NBA Season - 2013-2014

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
Markeiff Morris and Paul George named players of the Week. The Pacers are 8-0 so far this season. Steve Nash is out for two weeks. Derrick Rose pulled a hamstring in the Bulls latest game. And the parody across the league is ridiculous.
I'm a Lakers fan so yeah, the "parody" IS ridiculous. We gave up 47 points in the first quarter to the T-Wolves Sunday -- at home. That is a sizable number to give up in a half, but in one quarter...? Mike D'Antoni's defense is an absolute joke. God, am I glad we managed to keep our 2014 first round pick. I have a feeling it is going to be very valuable.

As for parity, I think it is too early to conclude that NFL style parity has reached the NBA. I am also still not convinced it is a good thing even if it has. Are any casual fans going to tune into a Finals featuring say, Memphis and (no offense intended) Detroit or Milwaukee? I'm not convinced. NBA popularity, with a few exceptions, is driven by it's stars, not it's teams (as the NFL is).
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Old November 12 2013, 10:39 PM   #20
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Re: NBA Season - 2013-2014

gblews wrote: View Post
HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
Markeiff Morris and Paul George named players of the Week. The Pacers are 8-0 so far this season. Steve Nash is out for two weeks. Derrick Rose pulled a hamstring in the Bulls latest game. And the parody across the league is ridiculous.
I'm a Lakers fan so yeah, the "parody" IS ridiculous. We gave up 47 points in the first quarter to the T-Wolves Sunday -- at home. That is a sizable number to give up in a half, but in one quarter...? Mike D'Antoni's defense is an absolute joke. God, am I glad we managed to keep our 2014 first round pick. I have a feeling it is going to be very valuable.

As for parity, I think it is too early to conclude that NFL style parity has reached the NBA. I am also still not convinced it is a good thing even if it has. Are any casual fans going to tune into a Finals featuring say, Memphis and (no offense intended) Detroit or Milwaukee? I'm not convinced. NBA popularity, with a few exceptions, is driven by it's stars, not it's teams (as the NFL is).
No offense taken.

I don't like parody because it means that teams don't stay together. Look at how many players even teams like the Philadelphia Eagles (with McNabb) and the New England Patriots (with Tom Brady) have gone through. They have let starters go down because of money. And this parody I think it rooted in the new financial system of the NBA.

To the casual fan, yes, it is all about superstars. Unlike in Baseball or Football, one explosive athlete can cover a bevy of mistakes. But this is about watching teams develop themselves, going after the best players, and not worrying about the price tag. We spent a lot of years with the Michael Jordan model of basketball. Give the ball to Allen Iverson or Tracy McGrady or Vince Carter and everyone else clear out. The zone rules made it easier to guard those players that needed room to operate, and so we had superstars like Dwyane Wade and Lebron James that had to do things on the fly. More than that, the NBA got back to team basketball.

However, the payroll for team basketball, while players do take less money to stay together, is high. Teams--namely the Phoenix Suns, LA Lakers, San Antonio Spurs, Indiana Pacers, Dallas Mavericks, Detroit Pistons, Boston Celtics, Cleveland Cavaliers--all had high payrolls (luxury tax) and the owners ponied up the money and they contended for a long time over those 10 years. There were defections, but the staples, the nucleus, was in place. And those guys who were on the team were not making chump change in endorsements, etc.

Now, the NBA has outlawed that system. People bemoan the Miami Heat. They think it's the end of basketball. All the players want to play together in big markets, and the best of the best, shouldn't have to join together, they should compete against one-another.

When I see the Heat, I see a team I don't personally like, but I don't want them broken up. I don't like teams that cannot rebound and play small-ball. But not every team has to be the exact same. As a matter of fact, that is boring.

A small example in the time I have been watching the Pistons. In 2004, the Lakers and their dominance versus the startups from the JV Conference, right? Good contrast in styles, high ratings. In 2005, the San Antonio Spurs and Detroit Pistons play. Mirror images of each other. Defense, team, same coaching tree, etc. Poor ratings.

Some could say that's just the Lakers, but the Lakers played the Nets in 2002 and didn't have those kind of ratings. They played the Pacers in 2000, didn't have those kind of ratings. It was David versus Goliath, and everyone watched and the NBA made lots of money.

So...I want my Pistons to get back on their feet, and beat the Heat. I don't want them broken up by money. I don't want a league where every team has a superstar, or has to scrape the bottom of the barrel to keep that superstar and have 5 starters.

We overreacted to the "trend" and outlawed great team basketball. Now, it's a race to be the Washington Generals because the Memphis Grizzlies let Rudy Gay and OJ Mayo walk out the door for nothing more than money. And they are in the bottom-half of the Conference now.

Contrast in styles gets ratings every time. If you hate the Heat, you will still watch them play a better team you root for.
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Old November 13 2013, 01:57 AM   #21
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Re: NBA Season - 2013-2014

Parity, not parody, btw. The NFL has massive turnover in teams, but that helps ensure teams flip over from bad to good relatively quickly. The NBA's salary cap is more likely to lead to salary cap hell (although I think players are more likely to stay with one team, since the rules encourage that). Weak drafts also compound the problem, though, so I don't think going to an NFL-style salary cap redeems all problems.
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Old November 13 2013, 08:44 PM   #22
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Re: NBA Season - 2013-2014

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
Parity, not parody, btw. The NFL has massive turnover in teams, but that helps ensure teams flip over from bad to good relatively quickly. The NBA's salary cap is more likely to lead to salary cap hell (although I think players are more likely to stay with one team, since the rules encourage that). Weak drafts also compound the problem, though, so I don't think going to an NFL-style salary cap redeems all problems.
What do you mean by, "salary cap hell"?

The NBA CBA has always encouraged players to stay with their same teams. But unlike the NFL, there is no "franchise tag" (something the NBAPA fought in the new CBA), so there is a bit more movement among the biggest stars in the NBA than in the biggest of the NFL's stars.

The NBA players were ready to decertify their union and start suing the owners individually rather than agree to a "hard cap" and "francise tags", so no, there is no way the NBA salary rules turn into the NFL's. The NBA players still have too much clout.
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Old November 14 2013, 05:22 AM   #23
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Re: NBA Season - 2013-2014

The NBA is a soft cap, which means teams can go above the cap to re-sign their own players. They also have guaranteed contracts so, if you re-sign a player, you're stuck with his salary (unless another team signs that player for the same or more money). Because of this, many teams are always over the cap and are stuck signing one player for the veteran's mid-level exception (it was 4 1/2 million, I'd have to imagine it's a bit more now) or an unlimited number of players for a minimum contract. But they can't make any big free agent signings because they're so far over the cap (often with players who retired several years earlier) that they can't clear up space. And when they do clear up space, it has to be to pay their draft picks who have set salaries depending on where they were drafted. It's also more difficult to trade players because, when both teams are over the cap, the salary of the players traded have to match (why you'll see three team deals). In addition, because you can go over the cap to re-sign your players but can't do it when the player goes to a new team, there's an incentive to stay with your team. Plus, if you can only give a certain percentage as a raise in a new contract, so you can't really just sign a minimum contract and then sign a larger contract later.

Salary Cap Hell is basically a position where a team can't do anything in free agency and the draft is never good enough to help so they have to hope to trade their expensive contracts for expiring contracts in order to have any chance to do anything.

I do think things are changing, though. Teams like the Heat managed to sign three big names. However, they did it because the players coordinated with each other to agree not to get paid the maximum they could command. In addition, the Heat blew up the entire team and the first year had barely anyone to go with the Big Three.
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Old November 15 2013, 10:14 PM   #24
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Re: NBA Season - 2013-2014

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
Salary Cap Hell is basically a position where a team can't do anything in free agency and the draft is never good enough to help so they have to hope to trade their expensive contracts for expiring contracts in order to have any chance to do anything.
Oh, okay. Since this is the case with most, if not all, serious contenders in the NBA -- at least over the cap and with low first or only 2nd round draft choices, I thought you might mean something else. As for the also rans that are in cap hell, most will get out of it eventually (some by "tanking") but wind up in the same position within a few years because they simply don't know that they're doing.

The thing is that being in "salary cap hell" has only just now begun to affect certain teams. The Lakers have been in "cap hell" since the day we signed Shaq and it didn't stop us from winning. In the past, if a team knew what it was doing, it didn't matter all that much. It is a problem now (for the Lakers) because the last of the stars from our last championships have gotten old and we need to do a massive overhaul.

These days, that almost has to involve the draft because the CBA has made being over the cap so much more painful than in the past and that is what happens trying to do it with free agents. Besides that, the crop of free agentes that we know will be available in 2014 is just not all that great.
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Old November 16 2013, 02:37 PM   #25
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Re: NBA Season - 2013-2014

Teams over the cap aren't inherently in salary cap hell. Teams over the cap with long-term contracts off players who are either terrible or no longer playing often are. Obviously, a team with Shaq and Kobe is going to be good even with two max salaries (actually, at least Shaq was more than the max salary). You can get a solid player who will work for the mid-level exception (particularly for a chance to win).

But how many teams who have been terrible for years are also over the cap? The draft really isn't strong enough to get out of a funk. Teams that end up rebuilding and doing well essentially have to completely blow up their team and start over - massively shed salary by trading for expiring contracts and letting all good players on your team walk.

The NBA is much better for dynasties compared to other leagues - the Lakers and Spurs can build up a run of championships. But it's nowhere near as good for parity and plenty of teams will be terrible for years at a time (compared to the NFL where only the chronically mismanaged will stay terrible).
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Old November 17 2013, 04:46 AM   #26
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Re: NBA Season - 2013-2014

Taking a pay cut helps.
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Old November 17 2013, 09:46 PM   #27
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Re: NBA Season - 2013-2014

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
Teams over the cap aren't inherently in salary cap hell. Teams over the cap with long-term contracts off players who are either terrible or no longer playing often are. Obviously, a team with Shaq and Kobe is going to be good even with two max salaries (actually, at least Shaq was more than the max salary). You can get a solid player who will work for the mid-level exception (particularly for a chance to win).

But how many teams who have been terrible for years are also
over the cap? The draft really isn't strong enough to get out of a funk. Teams that end up rebuilding and doing well essentially have to completely blow up their team and start over - massively shed salary by trading for expiring contracts and letting all good players on your team walk.

The NBA is much better for dynasties compared to other leagues - the Lakers and Spurs can build up a run of championships. But it's nowhere near as good for parity and plenty of teams will be terrible for years at a time (compared to the NFL where only the chronically mismanaged will stay terrible).
The NBA doesn't make dynasties any easier to create than the NFL. In fact, as I already pointed out, the NFL actually does more to hold it's star players to one team than the NBA does. The reason dynasties have developed in the NBA is that some teams, namely the Lakers and most recently, the Spurs perhaps, are better run than the other franchises. We'll have to see if Miami actually has a dynasty going.

The natures of the two games are factors too since there are more players involved in football providing more variables for winning and losing, the importance of the (NFL) quarterback position, the offense/defense dynamic. In the NBA, you can win championships with one or two superstars at any position and competent play from starter role players and back-ups and most importantly, "chemistry".

But what we are really talking about here is the incompetent versus the competent. Most teams in the NBA are simply incompetently run. They invest in the wrong players for too long, and that is the bottom line here. If you give too long contracts to bad players you lose, regardless of "salary cap hell" or whatever. You choose the right players, invest in them long term and in the process get capped out, always end up with high draft picks (who are long shots to make it in the league), and you can't continue to sign big name free agents. But, presumably, you're winning so who cares?

This is the way the Lakers have done it over the years, before there was a cap and since the cap. Even if in "salary cap hell" as you call it, a team can still make good trades, and this is something else at which the Lakers have excelled. But, it takes knowing who to trade, when to trade, and who to acquire.

The concept of "salary cap hell", I think, is mostly an invention by incompetent owners seeking to justify their own incompetence -- "it's not our fault we're losing, we are caught in salary cap hell", like it wasn't their own fault.
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Old November 19 2013, 03:46 PM   #28
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Re: NBA Season - 2013-2014

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
Salary Cap Hell is basically a position where a team can't do anything in free agency and the draft is never good enough to help so they have to hope to trade their expensive contracts for expiring contracts in order to have any chance to do anything.
I'll sum that up nicely for you in three words: New York Knicks.
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Old November 20 2013, 09:48 PM   #29
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Re: NBA Season - 2013-2014

Who is the regular season MVP at this point?

I think it's a 2-man race between Paul George (23.6 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 3.2 apg, and 1.4 spg for the 9-1 Indiana Pacers) and Lebron James (26.0 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 6.7 apg, for the 8-3 Miami Heat). Durant is good, but I think he is helped by Westbrook. Chris Paul has been solid, but he's not putting up numbers like Magic or Oscar.
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Old November 23 2013, 09:59 PM   #30
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Re: NBA Season - 2013-2014

Does the Knicks fanbase care about winning or they just want to see some nice 3s and lots of dunking?
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