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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old November 13 2013, 07:09 PM   #316
BillJ
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
As for Vengenance being top secret. Marcus had a model of her on his desk. I'm not 100% certain that she was completely top secret beyond her modifications. The class might have been developed for some other use (example: Long range explorer) and Marcus hijacked the project to build his super ship.
This almost certainly has to be the case. There's no way they could've went from drawing board to working prototype in less than a year. Not on a ship that large and full of new technology.
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Old November 13 2013, 07:14 PM   #317
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BillJ wrote: View Post
This almost certainly has to be the case. There's no way they could've went from drawing board to working prototype in less than a year. Not on a ship that large and full of new technology.
Why not? They went from a transporter equation to a portable transporter unit that can send you from one solar system to another in the same amount of time.
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Old November 13 2013, 07:18 PM   #318
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
This almost certainly has to be the case. There's no way they could've went from drawing board to working prototype in less than a year. Not on a ship that large and full of new technology.
Why not? They went from a transporter equation to a portable transporter unit that can send you from one solar system to another in the same amount of time.
With the transporter you already had a relationship between the programming and the technology. The simply miniaturized the technology.

We saw in the first film it took at least three-plus years to build the Enterprise and they looked to have the outer framework of the ship nearly complete.
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Old November 13 2013, 07:22 PM   #319
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
This almost certainly has to be the case. There's no way they could've went from drawing board to working prototype in less than a year. Not on a ship that large and full of new technology.
Why not? They went from a transporter equation to a portable transporter unit that can send you from one solar system to another in the same amount of time.
Whole different ballgame. You're talking about building once piece of tech, that's really nothing much more than an upgrade to existing tech. Versus funding, then building an entire ship employing new engines, computers, flight dynamics, and weapons. Then make all the new stuff work and then work together, manufacture it, then put it all together on a newly built spaceframe.

Vengance's class, or at least the project that led to her, was probably not secret. What the ship could really do or was meant to do probably was.
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Old November 13 2013, 07:47 PM   #320
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Marcus could have given them orders to stay out of the fight cause Kirk had some super weapon that only Marcus and his ship could deal with.
See, I like to give credit to writers who actually try to justify why these ridiculous things happen, but I'm not going to give STID's writing trio credit for stuff they didn't even bother to put into the movie. Speculate all you want, but if there's nothing in the film that confirms your speculations, I'm going to conclude that they didn't put much thought into it. Marcus tells everyone to stay out of the fight? I'm not buying it. He's in a bigger, more powerful ship shooting at the flag ship of the Federation that isn't even fighting back. How can anyone look at that and not think "that ain't right". He needs to kill Kirk because he's allied with a terrorist? Well, why not try to arrest him? I doubt that every single member of his +1,000 crew are all in on it and deserve a swift execution.

the problem is that you just don't know how many allies Admiral Marcus has sprinkled throughout the upper echelons of Starfleet Command and how many loyal Captains and other officers are around.
If Marcus actually had that much hidden influence to stop anyone from interfering with his secret business even when he's making a show if it in front of Earth, why does he need to worry about anything at all? Why not let Kirk bring Khan back to Earth and tell his followers to kill them the moment they arrive on Earth? Why is he in such a hurry to destroy the Enterprise when he can sit back and let his loyal officers deal with Kirk and Khan?
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Old November 13 2013, 07:55 PM   #321
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Jeyl wrote: View Post

See, I like to give credit to writers who actually try to justify why these ridiculous things happen, but I'm not going to give STID's writing trio credit for stuff they didn't even bother to put into the movie. Speculate all you want, but if there's nothing in the film that confirms your speculations, I'm going to conclude that they didn't put much thought into it.
By that standard every Star Trek movie needs to be seven hours long and every episode three.

I'm just wondering when some Star Trek fans started needing everything spoon fed to them?

If Marcus actually had that much hidden influence to stop anyone from interfering with his secret business even when he's making a show if it in front of Earth, why does he need to worry about anything at all? Why not let Kirk bring Khan back to Earth and tell his followers to kill them the moment they arrive on Earth? Why is he in such a hurry to destroy the Enterprise when he can sit back and let his loyal officers deal with Kirk and Khan?
Because once you get back to Earth, you actually have other factors to deal with like the Earth government, the media and so on. By destroying the Enterprise before she ever makes it to Earth, he can control the flow of information. He was going to destroy them near the Neutral Zone, but they took off before that could happen.
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Old November 13 2013, 07:56 PM   #322
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Vengance's class, or at least the project that led to her, was probably not secret. What the ship could really do or was meant to do probably was.
If it wasn't secret, why does Scotty, a character who happens to know about the Enterprise even before her first mission is so shocked at the sight of it? If the Vengeance isn't secret, why is it being built at a secret location around Jupiter? And if the ship was built years ago, why does Khan say he designed it and that it's designated as a Dreadnaught class as though it was the first time the ship was ever brought up? If it's not a secret ship, shouldn't someone be able to pull up the schematics of it like Spock Prime did with the NuEnterprise schematics onboard that torn up shuttle on Delta Vega?
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Old November 13 2013, 07:58 PM   #323
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Marcus could have given them orders to stay out of the fight cause Kirk had some super weapon that only Marcus and his ship could deal with.
See, I like to give credit to writers who actually try to justify why these ridiculous things happen, but I'm not going to give STID's writing trio credit for stuff they didn't even bother to put into the movie. Speculate all you want, but if there's nothing in the film that confirms your speculations, I'm going to conclude that they didn't put much thought into it. Marcus tells everyone to stay out of the fight? I'm not buying it. He's in a bigger, more powerful ship shooting at the flag ship of the Federation that isn't even fighting back. How can anyone look at that and not think "that ain't right". He needs to kill Kirk because he's allied with a terrorist? Well, why not try to arrest him? I doubt that every single member of his +1,000 crew are all in on it and deserve a swift execution.

the problem is that you just don't know how many allies Admiral Marcus has sprinkled throughout the upper echelons of Starfleet Command and how many loyal Captains and other officers are around.
If Marcus actually had that much hidden influence to stop anyone from interfering with his secret business even when he's making a show if it in front of Earth, why does he need to worry about anything at all? Why not let Kirk bring Khan back to Earth and tell his followers to kill them the moment they arrive on Earth? Why is he in such a hurry to destroy the Enterprise when he can sit back and let his loyal officers deal with Kirk and Khan?
Why did Leyton order the Defiant destroyed on the way to Earth just cause they had captured one his spies? He seem to have had plenty of support within Starfleet to stage his take over?

Cause you don't let the truth get out--support or not. You don't want, and--if you can help it-- you don't allow people to ask questions--supporter or not. Plus, even his supporters might have balked at Marcus using Khan or trying to start a deliberate war with the Klingons. Build up for a possible war? Fine. Actually start the war? Different story. Use an Augment, the most diabolical and superior of the bunch? Hell no.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Vengance's class, or at least the project that led to her, was probably not secret. What the ship could really do or was meant to do probably was.
If it wasn't secret, why does Scotty, a character who happens to know about the Enterprise even before her first mission is so shocked at the sight of it? If the Vengeance isn't secret, why is it being built at a secret location around Jupiter? And if the ship was built years ago, why does Khan say he designed it and that it's designated as a Dreadnaught class as though it was the first time the ship was ever brought up? If it's not a secret ship, shouldn't someone be able to pull up the schematics of it like Spock Prime did with the NuEnterprise schematics onboard that torn up shuttle on Delta Vega?
- Scotty wasn't expecting to find a secret spacedock where he did, much less one with a Starfleet ship being built. As for why build it secret: Cause it's black ops. Officially: Hide it from the Klingons; unofficially keep it off the "official" record.

- Vengeance could have started it's life as an off-the-shelf build and between Khan and Marcus the ship became something different than the official specs. The modifications probably aren't in the official record.

- Khan probably revised and dialed in a lot of the changes. But most of what he did was probably get the ship to the specs he wanted.
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Last edited by SeerSGB; November 13 2013 at 08:09 PM.
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Old November 13 2013, 08:00 PM   #324
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Whose to say Scotty didn't know about the Vengeance program prior to its subversion by Marcus? Seeing something on paper and up-close and in person are two distinct things. Plus, since the Vengeance wasn't yet in service, its schematics may require security clearances that our crew simply don't have.

So much of this stuff is common sense I'm not sure why anyone would need it spelled out in the movie itself?
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Old November 13 2013, 08:14 PM   #325
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

There is likely a USS Dreadnought looking rather more normal in terms of the hull colouring and with full legit markings being built with less weapons at the Utopia Plantia, or another facility.

Vengeance, unmarked and stealth toned, with large blister weapon sets, was going to look very 'off' to Scotty when he saw it.

The Dreadnought might even be further behind in construction with the Vengeance being given priority by Marcus. Everyone else would be expecting the class to role out months or even a year or more away.

Heck, we could see Dreadnought in the next movie.
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Old November 13 2013, 08:15 PM   #326
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BillJ wrote: View Post
Whose to say Scotty didn't know about the Vengeance program prior to its subversion by Marcus? Seeing something on paper and up-close and in person are two distinct things. Plus, since the Vengeance wasn't yet in service, its schematics may require security clearances that our crew simply don't have.

So much of this stuff is common sense I'm not sure why anyone would need it spelled out in the movie itself?
And we're forgetting: Carol knew the basics of what Marcus was developing, that he had been designing a super ship.
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Old November 13 2013, 08:17 PM   #327
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

It wouldn't need to take seven hours just to explain why Starfleet didn't do anything when two ships were combating on their front lawn, especially when it became clear both the Enterprise and Vengeance had become crippled to the point of being pulled into the Earth's atmosphere.

"Don't bother, Marcus obviously has everything under control. We'll just see how things play out."

*Vengeance crashes into San Fransisco*

"Oh."

I think a simple "I informed Starfleet that you're a terrorist that needs to be taken out for blah blah blah" would have sufficed. Quick, simple, informative and puts aside any questions for those who are taken aback by the events. Heck, at least that would have been something. Resorting to "it's just common sense" comes off like saying "no no, there's nothing wrong with the film, there's something wrong with YOU for not figuring it out." I do agree with the sentiment of not wanting to be spoon fed every information, but that doesn't seem to apply here since there's little info to go by beyond "he's a top admiral, look over there, a rabbit!". Go ahead and buy what hacks like Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof sell, I'm not.
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Old November 13 2013, 08:23 PM   #328
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post

I think a simple "I informed Starfleet that you're a terrorist that needs to be taken out for blah blah blah" would have sufficed.
But he does explain exactly his reasoning for destroying the Enterprise. Does it really take that huge of a leap to think that he was already in contact with Starfleet?

The writing of the film suffers in two areas for me: the transition from John Harrison to Khan and the explanation for the torpedoes is really rough and both could've used more time in the writers' room.
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Old November 13 2013, 08:24 PM   #329
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
It wouldn't need to take seven hours just to explain why Starfleet didn't do anything when two ships were combating on their front lawn, especially when it became clear both the Enterprise and Vengeance had become crippled to the point of being pulled into the Earth's atmosphere.

"Don't bother, Marcus obviously has everything under control. We'll just see how things play out."

*Vengeance crashes into San Fransisco*

"Oh."

I think a simple "I informed Starfleet that you're a terrorist that needs to be taken out for blah blah blah" would have sufficed. Quick, simple, informative and puts aside any questions for those who are taken aback by the events. Heck, at least that would have been something. Resorting to "it's just common sense" comes off like saying "no no, there's nothing wrong with the film, there's something wrong with YOU for not figuring it out." I do agree with the sentiment of not wanting to be spoon fed every information, but that doesn't seem to apply here since there's little info to go by beyond "he's a top admiral, look over there, a rabbit!". Go ahead and buy what hacks like Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof sell, I'm not.
Then I guess every Trek writer that employed the same trope is a hack?

BillJ wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post

I think a simple "I informed Starfleet that you're a terrorist that needs to be taken out for blah blah blah" would have sufficed.
But he does explain exactly his reasoning for destroying the Enterprise. Does it really take that huge of a leap to think that he was already in contact with Starfleet?

The writing of the film suffers in two areas for me: the transition from John Harrison to Khan and the explanation for the torpedoes is really rough and both could've used more time in the writers' room.
Yeah, he's pretty formal and sounds on the record when he gives that order.

John Harrison: I wouldn't have made him Khan. But, I don't know what the word from on high was in regards to what and who had to be in the movie storywise.

Torpedoes: I would have kept the torps, but taken out Khan's people and loaded them onto the Vengeance in cryo, with Marcus using them as a human shield in case Khan got loose. Same disclaimer as above: If I had to have Khan, I would have moved the reveal to when he's captured the Vengance.
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Old November 13 2013, 08:31 PM   #330
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BillJ wrote: View Post
But he does explain exactly his reasoning for destroying the Enterprise. Does it really take that huge of a leap to think that he was already in contact with Starfleet?
You could make that assumption, but that's all it would be, and having a throwaway line like the one I suggest wouldn't be time consuming and would at least temper the absurdity of the whole affair.

The writing of the film suffers in two areas for me: the transition from John Harrison to Khan and the explanation for the torpedoes is really rough and both could've used more time in the writers' room.
It's too bad four years wasn't enough for these geniuses.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
It wouldn't need to take seven hours just to explain why Starfleet didn't do anything when two ships were combating on their front lawn, especially when it became clear both the Enterprise and Vengeance had become crippled to the point of being pulled into the Earth's atmosphere.

"Don't bother, Marcus obviously has everything under control. We'll just see how things play out."

*Vengeance crashes into San Fransisco*

"Oh."

I think a simple "I informed Starfleet that you're a terrorist that needs to be taken out for blah blah blah" would have sufficed. Quick, simple, informative and puts aside any questions for those who are taken aback by the events. Heck, at least that would have been something. Resorting to "it's just common sense" comes off like saying "no no, there's nothing wrong with the film, there's something wrong with YOU for not figuring it out." I do agree with the sentiment of not wanting to be spoon fed every information, but that doesn't seem to apply here since there's little info to go by beyond "he's a top admiral, look over there, a rabbit!". Go ahead and buy what hacks like Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof sell, I'm not.
Then I guess every Trek writer that employed the same trope is a hack?
Please, just because writers made mistakes in the past doesn't mean I'm gonna give them a pass. At least with Leyton it backfired because people started to see the holes in his scheme. Unless Starfleet was run exclusively by robots, it's hard to believe all of what happened in the climax would have happened without someone getting wise, especially once the Vengeance and Enterprise started falling towards Earth. That should have immediately called for some kind of response.

John Harrison: I wouldn't have made him Khan. But, I don't know what the word from on high was in regards to what and who had to be in the movie storywise.
Lindelof took credit for pushing his "Khan must be used, he's The Joker of the Star Trek franchise", so it's him deserves that credit (blame).
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