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View Poll Results: Do fans want the prime timeline back?
I'm a fan and I want the Prime timeline back. 159 55.21%
I'm a fan and I don't want the Prime timeline back. 52 18.06%
I'm a fan and wouldn't mind if it came back. 32 11.11%
I don't care, just give me Trek! 39 13.54%
I don't know. 6 2.08%
Voters: 288. You may not vote on this poll

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Old November 13 2013, 06:55 PM   #676
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Captain Jed R. wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
As there is a huge amount of continuity with the old in the new Trek movies, countless references both visual and in-story.
Visually, the Enterprise has the TMP saucer on a vague recreation of it's basic shape, ships look vaguely Starfleet in arrangement (albeit far too big) and there's similarities in a couple of the uniform variations. Story wise, there's wholesale ripping off of scenes, but it isn't part of the same continuity. Doctor Who has visual elements comparatively - if not totally - unchanged, and has story elements that tie in over fifty years. No comparison.
The interior of the TARDIS changes all the time, doesn't it? And destroying Atlantis 3 times sounds a lot like Kirk and Spock in the warp core after battling Khan - I bet the Doctor didn't remember the other times it happened to him, either.

Obviously the details of the new Enterprise would differ, coming 25 years after a change in the timeline - but look at the models on Admiral Marcus' desk - the Phoenix, Aries IV, Ringship, NX-Alpha, NX-01 which all pre-date the split in timelines and look exactly as they should. Look at the Saurian Brandy bottle is the first movie, look at the Klingon battle cruisers in the Kobayashi Maru test. THAT is visual continuity. As for in-story continuity, they bent over backwards to explain exactly how and why Khan was awakened differently in ID - that's 47 years of story tie-ins.
Surely the alternate reality Spock is in now is no different to the alternate realities the Doctor destroyed Atlantis in those three times? I presume those histories branched off as a result of time travels by the Doctor and others, just as the one Spock is in branched from 2233 when Nero arrived?
No. Those histories did not branch off.

Simple reason? Because it was the 1970's, and they didn't give a shit about continuity because the stuff was hardly ever repeated on BBC telly and there was no such thing as home video.
Trek: TOS was made under the same assumptions.
But they are, in fact, almost certainly meant to be in the same universe. God knows quite how, but there was never any mention of "history changing", so no, not alternate realities. One reality. One continuity. Completely different from the rebooted Star Trek in that respect, where there is an explicitly separate reality created by Nero going back in time.
That makes no sense whatsoever unless it was due to the other stories or something altering Atlantis' history even if it was never stated as such in the episode. I know DW does alternate histories - I recall an episode set on a version of Earth with airships.
The Doctor does back and fights the Daleks in a timeline where many of his earlier battles with them may or may not have happened. Kirk fights the Klingons in a timeline where his earlier battles didn't. Where's the difference? You say Trek is a reboot, yet it's explicitly tied into the original continuity by time travel.
No. The Doctor's life is in one continuity: his adventures happen in one continuity. Kirk can never reference events of stories that will never happen to him. The Klingons he fights will never reference events that will never happen to them. In the Doctor's universe, if he goes back, then forward again, those events will be the same, in the same continuity. And don't even get me started on the theory of Gallifrey Mean Time...

tl:dr
Doctor Who is in the same continuity, which the Doctor goes to different points to via time travel. It remains the same continuity.

Star Trek is in a new continuity, created by one act of random time travel, that can never return to the original continuity and has instead created it's own.

Anyway, why are we even discussing Doctor Who? This has nothing to do with my point when I posted earlier in this thread, which was simply that Doctor Who returned in 2005 with a continuation not a reboot, and did so successfully, proving that it can in fact be done. This discussion has nothing to do with that point. Doctor Who's continuity remains constant with the older series, and is continually advancing forward from the previous point in the story. Apart from Spock Prime, nothing in the new universe is a continuation of "old" Trek (apart from Enterprise), and is now advancing down a totally different road from the point of divergence, and can never ever go back to the other road by virtue of so much having altered. Different beasts. Simple as.
It may be supposedly the same Doctor, but since he keeps interfering in history and we've seen the results, it can't be the same timeline in 2012 as it was when Doctor Who began. Just like the new Trek isn't the same timeline as the original. Perhaps the DW spin-off series would be a better example, vs. the version of history that existed pre- or between the Doctor's tamperings?

And the new Doctor Who won't likely go back to those past versions of Altantis or most of his other past adventures. He's been on a totally different road since the 70's and again since the restart. It seems as much a reboot as nuTrek's alternate timeline in the same multiverse is (or isn't)
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Old November 13 2013, 07:11 PM   #677
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Actually -- and I was only a casual WHO viewer as well -- didn't DOCTOR WHO almost always avoid discussion of alternate histories and paradoxes? I don't remember it ever being an issue. Maybe they thought it would be too confusing to the viewers.
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Old November 13 2013, 07:31 PM   #678
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

bbjeg wrote: View Post
We should vote JJ for president.
Couldn't be worse than who we have now.




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Old November 13 2013, 07:50 PM   #679
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
The interior of the TARDIS changes all the time, doesn't it? And destroying Atlantis 3 times sounds a lot like Kirk and Spock in the warp core after battling Khan - I bet the Doctor didn't remember the other times it happened to him, either.
He never said he didn't, and since he's the same character implied to have the same experiences throughout, as opposed to Spock Prime and NuSpock being separate characters, there's no reason to assume he wouldn't. It might even have been three separate "Atlantis'", since I'm fairly sure that they had different cultures. As for the TARDIS, yes it changes. But there is a difference between gradual evolution of a design and wholesale altering of the visual feel of an entire universe.

That makes no sense whatsoever unless it was due to the other stories or something altering Atlantis' history even if it was never stated as such in the episode. I know DW does alternate histories - I recall an episode set on a version of Earth with airships.
That was very clearly a journey to a specific alternate history. Different thing entirely. That alternate world was part of a different universe to the one the Doctor potters about in, and it's explicitly stated that it doesn't happen all that often. The main universe where Doctor Who occurs is a single universe. That universe doesn't turn into an alternate universe when things are inconsistent - it just says "fuck it" and moves on.

It may be supposedly the same Doctor, but since he keeps interfering in history and we've seen the results, it can't be the same timeline in 2012 as it was when Doctor Who began. Just like the new Trek isn't the same timeline as the original. Perhaps the DW spin-off series would be a better example, vs. the version of history that existed pre- or between the Doctor's tamperings?

And the new Doctor Who won't likely go back to those past versions of Altantis or most of his other past adventures. He's been on a totally different road since the 70's and again since the restart. It seems as much a reboot as nuTrek's alternate timeline in the same multiverse is (or isn't)
Except that he's met Sarah Jane and Jo Grant, he's dealt with UNIT and Davros and the Master, and each of them remember their histories. They continue to exist in a developing timeline of the same cosmos. There's a 50th anniversary story coming up that's entirely about returning to his own past. That's the difference. The new Kirk and Spock can't ever reminisce or make reference to the rich tapestry of Trek history (apart from Enterprise) because it has never, will never and can never happen to them.

And for God's sake, Doctor Who was not rebooted, Star Trek was. I don't care how you think it is, that's the fact of the matter. Doctor Who was revitalised, but the story is a continuation of the story of the original version, not a reselling of a new take on the same story as the new Trek is. Spock Prime's presence does not make this any less of a reboot.
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Old November 14 2013, 12:02 AM   #680
Hober Mallow
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

All this arguing over continuity makes me not want to ever watch the new WHO.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
bbjeg wrote: View Post
We should vote JJ for president.
Couldn't be worse than who we have now.
You mean the third term of George W. Bush? I completely agree.
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Old November 14 2013, 12:20 AM   #681
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
All this arguing over continuity makes me not want to ever watch the new WHO.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
bbjeg wrote: View Post
We should vote JJ for president.
Couldn't be worse than who we have now.
You mean the third term of George W. Bush? I completely agree.
Wow, you found a scenario where I would rather vote for JJ.
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Old November 14 2013, 12:30 AM   #682
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Captain Jed R. wrote: View Post
The way your post was worded to my reading was that, to quote said post, "the old series was no longer working": the implication being that because the old series was no longer working, a "reboot" was the only desired or logical outcome.
Well, yeah. If you read something into my post that I actually didn't say, then I guess I totally said it.

I said, justifiably, that old Trek wasn't working anymore. Enterprise and Nemesis showed that. Paramount/CBS lost their confidence in the product as it was.

What was needed, for the franchise to continue, is a fresh approach. What they chose was a reboot. I never said, thought or implied that it was the only choice, though I will admit that it's the one I would've taken myself, had I been in their place, and I had been saying it for a while before ST09 was announced.

Doctor Who's revival is nothing short of amazing, and it's a fantastic series. And yes, it shows that you can just pick up where you were and go on. However, most of the new show doesn't hinge on knowledge of the old show, so the impact of keeping the previous history of Who was minimal.

Also, as stated before, Trek's reboot isn't actually a full reboot, as it's an in-universe reboot that's dependant upon everything else happening before, and the new movies are full of references to old Trek as well.

Doctor Who is in the same continuity
That's irrelevant. What matters, from a studio perspective, is whether or not the viewers need to understand past stuff in order to follow the show. This is one of the big reasons why television series in the 60s and 70s were episodic.

And applying the time-travel rules of both series, one could easily say that every time the Doctor does anything, he creates a new continuity. At least Trek's time travel is relatively rare. Trying to construct a single, consistent continuity for Doctor Who is futile, with this in mind. Doesn't stop people from trying, in vain.
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Old November 14 2013, 07:31 AM   #683
Captain Jed R.
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Belz... wrote: View Post
Well, yeah. If you read something into my post that I actually didn't say, then I guess I totally said it.

I said, justifiably, that old Trek wasn't working anymore. Enterprise and Nemesis showed that. Paramount/CBS lost their confidence in the product as it was.

What was needed, for the franchise to continue, is a fresh approach. What they chose was a reboot. I never said, thought or implied that it was the only choice, though I will admit that it's the one I would've taken myself, had I been in their place, and I had been saying it for a while before ST09 was announced.
Perhaps then you should endeavour to say exactly what you mean to begin with - on the Internet, people misunderstand other people quite easily. Or, alternatively, not get apparently offended when people read into a short sentence to find the exact meaning. Either works.

You said one sentence. That sentence was in reply to this:

It didn't need rebooting, it needed fresh ideas and a fresh perspective, and a break.
To which you said

Which is exactly what a reboot is. The old series was clearly no longer working.
Implying that the reboot was the only logical/desired course of action by saying that the old series wasn't working.

If you honestly can't see how that reads like that to me, that's perfectly fine. But please don't get snarky because others see things in your words you don't.

Doctor Who's revival is nothing short of amazing, and it's a fantastic series. And yes, it shows that you can just pick up where you were and go on. However, most of the new show doesn't hinge on knowledge of the old show, so the impact of keeping the previous history of Who was minimal.

Also, as stated before, Trek's reboot isn't actually a full reboot, as it's an in-universe reboot that's dependant upon everything else happening before, and the new movies are full of references to old Trek as well.
To the bold: that, right there, was my point. Did you need to know all that much about TOS when TNG came along? Nope, it seemed fairly self evident what the hell was going on. My entire point, before this little irrelevant side-step into talking continuity in Doctor Who, was that Star Trek didn't necessarily need a reboot to be made successful again, and frankly this entire conversation has made me wish I hadn't bothered posting.

And Trek's reboot might as well be a "full" reboot. Visually speaking it is, completely: technology, from the get go, looks more advanced than the Enterprise E, there's an entirely different aesthetic to the entire universe, weaponry's changed from beams to bolts...

Story wise, apart from the clunky origin story for the universe, it's also different: the characters have different relationships to one another, different attitudes, different skills. Basic information changes from one universe to another, where suddenly everyone forgets that they aren't meant to know what Romulans look like. Spock Prime being there doesn't stop it from being different.

I can't see how anyone can argue it's not a full reboot. Because it really is, down to it's very fibre. It's just a different beast. That isn't even a bad thing, FFS, as it's clearly been wildly successful. Good for it. Now if you'll excuse me, I made my point, and I have less than no interest in continuing this conversation further.
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Old November 14 2013, 12:49 PM   #684
Belz...
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Captain Jed R. wrote: View Post
You said one sentence. That sentence was in reply to this:

It didn't need rebooting, it needed fresh ideas and a fresh perspective, and a break.
To which you said

Which is exactly what a reboot is. The old series was clearly no longer working.
Implying that the reboot was the only logical/desired course of action by saying that the old series wasn't working.
It implies nothing of the sort. It says exactly what it says: that a reboot is a fresh perspective. YOU are the one who added meaning to my sentence. Don't put that on me.

frankly this entire conversation has made me wish I hadn't bothered posting.
Take it as a lesson for the future: read what people write, and stop reading between the lines.

And Trek's reboot might as well be a "full" reboot. Visually speaking it is, completely: technology, from the get go, looks more advanced than the Enterprise E, there's an entirely different aesthetic to the entire universe, weaponry's changed from beams to bolts...
We're going to have to agree to disagree, here.

Story wise, apart from the clunky origin story for the universe, it's also different: the characters have different relationships to one another, different attitudes, different skills.
Well a lot has changed from Nero's arrival, which could account for the ripple effect.

I can't see how anyone can argue it's not a full reboot.
The fact that Enterprise and everything prior to 2233 already happened, and that Nero's arrival can't occur without the prior series having happened should be very clear. It's not like they ignored the past series: they keep talking about them. Hell, there are two Spocks, right there.
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Old November 15 2013, 06:51 PM   #685
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Captain Jed R. wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
The interior of the TARDIS changes all the time, doesn't it? And destroying Atlantis 3 times sounds a lot like Kirk and Spock in the warp core after battling Khan - I bet the Doctor didn't remember the other times it happened to him, either.
He never said he didn't, and since he's the same character implied to have the same experiences throughout, as opposed to Spock Prime and NuSpock being separate characters, there's no reason to assume he wouldn't. It might even have been three separate "Atlantis'", since I'm fairly sure that they had different cultures. As for the TARDIS, yes it changes. But there is a difference between gradual evolution of a design and wholesale altering of the visual feel of an entire universe.
That's in the eye of the beholder. The changes inside the TARDIS interior (not to mention the Doctor's endless reincarnations) look at least as different to me as the Enterprise's in TOS, the classic movies and the new ones. The basic set-up is always the same, but the details are totally different.
That makes no sense whatsoever unless it was due to the other stories or something altering Atlantis' history even if it was never stated as such in the episode. I know DW does alternate histories - I recall an episode set on a version of Earth with airships.
That was very clearly a journey to a specific alternate history. Different thing entirely. That alternate world was part of a different universe to the one the Doctor potters about in, and it's explicitly stated that it doesn't happen all that often. The main universe where Doctor Who occurs is a single universe. That universe doesn't turn into an alternate universe when things are inconsistent - it just says "fuck it" and moves on.

It may be supposedly the same Doctor, but since he keeps interfering in history and we've seen the results, it can't be the same timeline in 2012 as it was when Doctor Who began. Just like the new Trek isn't the same timeline as the original. Perhaps the DW spin-off series would be a better example, vs. the version of history that existed pre- or between the Doctor's tamperings?

And the new Doctor Who won't likely go back to those past versions of Altantis or most of his other past adventures. He's been on a totally different road since the 70's and again since the restart. It seems as much a reboot as nuTrek's alternate timeline in the same multiverse is (or isn't)
Except that he's met Sarah Jane and Jo Grant, he's dealt with UNIT and Davros and the Master, and each of them remember their histories. They continue to exist in a developing timeline of the same cosmos. There's a 50th anniversary story coming up that's entirely about returning to his own past. That's the difference. The new Kirk and Spock can't ever reminisce or make reference to the rich tapestry of Trek history (apart from Enterprise) because it has never, will never and can never happen to them.
Yet whatever the point-of-view of the in-universe characters (and Spock Prime sure reminisced about Khan in ID) the viewers with knowledge of what came before can see when something parallel to the original adventures happens.
And for God's sake, Doctor Who was not rebooted, Star Trek was. I don't care how you think it is, that's the fact of the matter. Doctor Who was revitalised, but the story is a continuation of the story of the original version, not a reselling of a new take on the same story as the new Trek is. Spock Prime's presence does not make this any less of a reboot.
The 2005+ Doctor Who requires as much knowledge of the old versions as the 2009 Trek does - nothing. They're both quasi-reboots, each with rich but unnecessary take-it-or-leave-it backstories. Both were intended as fresh starts designed to attract new fans.
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Old November 15 2013, 09:00 PM   #686
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
The interior of the TARDIS changes all the time, doesn't it?
Interior decorating. Plus, the TARDIS can reconfigure itself, and there have been instances of parts of it being jettisoned (ie. Romana's bedroom in Logopolis and the Zero Room in Castrovalva). None of that means the different TARDIS interiors take place in different timelines.

The 2005+ Doctor Who requires as much knowledge of the old versions as the 2009 Trek does - nothing. They're both quasi-reboots, each with rich but unnecessary take-it-or-leave-it backstories. Both were intended as fresh starts designed to attract new fans.
The modern Doctor Who is enhanced by knowledge of the Classic Doctor Who stories. For example, the episode where the Doctor meets Sarah Jane in the school, and she tells him he really didn't leave her in Croyden. To really appreciate that, it helps to have seen the episode The Hand of Fear in which the Doctor gets summoned back to Gallifrey and can't take her with him. He promises to take her home, but misses the coordinates.

Recommendation to the people who have seen the new Doctor Who trailer: Watch the Tom Baker-era story Brain of Morbius before you see the upcoming 50th anniversary show. It looks like a marvelous bit of continuity there.
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Old November 15 2013, 10:21 PM   #687
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
The interior of the TARDIS changes all the time, doesn't it?
Interior decorating. Plus, the TARDIS can reconfigure itself, and there have been instances of parts of it being jettisoned (ie. Romana's bedroom in Logopolis and the Zero Room in Castrovalva). None of that means the different TARDIS interiors take place in different timelines.

The 2005+ Doctor Who requires as much knowledge of the old versions as the 2009 Trek does - nothing. They're both quasi-reboots, each with rich but unnecessary take-it-or-leave-it backstories. Both were intended as fresh starts designed to attract new fans.
The modern Doctor Who is enhanced by knowledge of the Classic Doctor Who stories. For example, the episode where the Doctor meets Sarah Jane in the school, and she tells him he really didn't leave her in Croyden. To really appreciate that, it helps to have seen the episode The Hand of Fear in which the Doctor gets summoned back to Gallifrey and can't take her with him. He promises to take her home, but misses the coordinates.

Recommendation to the people who have seen the new Doctor Who trailer: Watch the Tom Baker-era story Brain of Morbius before you see the upcoming 50th anniversary show. It looks like a marvelous bit of continuity there.
* Bolding mine

So you're not up to eithe "The Doctor's Wife" or "Journey to the Center Of the Tardis yet" or even "The Name Of The Doctor"?
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Old November 16 2013, 12:49 AM   #688
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
The interior of the TARDIS changes all the time, doesn't it?
Interior decorating. Plus, the TARDIS can reconfigure itself, and there have been instances of parts of it being jettisoned (ie. Romana's bedroom in Logopolis and the Zero Room in Castrovalva). None of that means the different TARDIS interiors take place in different timelines.
That wasn't the point - I was merely saying that new Trek and new Who are equally loose with their visual continuity. They stay basically the same, but change all the details and make stylistic changes at will.
The 2005+ Doctor Who requires as much knowledge of the old versions as the 2009 Trek does - nothing. They're both quasi-reboots, each with rich but unnecessary take-it-or-leave-it backstories. Both were intended as fresh starts designed to attract new fans.
The modern Doctor Who is enhanced by knowledge of the Classic Doctor Who stories. For example, the episode where the Doctor meets Sarah Jane in the school, and she tells him he really didn't leave her in Croyden. To really appreciate that, it helps to have seen the episode The Hand of Fear in which the Doctor gets summoned back to Gallifrey and can't take her with him. He promises to take her home, but misses the coordinates.
I don't deny that - I'd say it's just like Into Darkness is given another layer of meaning when watched with knowledge of Space Seed and Wrath of Khan - and the "great cost" that the elder Spock spoke of.
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Old November 16 2013, 04:28 PM   #689
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Apparently, nothing is on the horizon according to Abrams...

http://trekweb.com/articles/2013/11/...V-Series.shtml
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Old November 17 2013, 10:34 PM   #690
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
So you're not up to eithe "The Doctor's Wife" or "Journey to the Center Of the Tardis yet" or even "The Name Of The Doctor"?
I saw those recently but I don't know what you're refering to.
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