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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old November 13 2013, 04:40 AM   #301
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
All this Earth hate makes me want to join Terra Prime,
Earth knows what it did. Poor Pluto can't even talk about it.
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Old November 13 2013, 08:25 AM   #302
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

I'll give credit to ST09 in that Nero doesn't just wants to destroy Earth but rather every Federation planet, and he starts with Vulcan.
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Old November 13 2013, 01:24 PM   #303
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
No, the writers and producers of "Space Seed" were idiots. They wrote the line about Khan being a Sikh, yet ignored the recommendations of DeForest Research about proper Sikh names and appearance (Khan and Noonien are not Sikh names and nothing about Khan's appearance says Sikh or even Indian).

I guess they figured the audience was too dumb to notice.
Sadly, they were right. Well, not necessarily dumb, but ignorant, if not blithely so.

And, unfortunately, things haven't significantly improved. Being too ignorant to notice applies not just to the American public of the mid-60's, but also to plenty of Star Trek fans over the years, as well as generally to Americans today.
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Old November 13 2013, 02:21 PM   #304
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Nerys Myk wrote:
So yes to brown face and a Spanish accent for character who's supposed to be a Sikh and an Indian?
It's decades later, and I'm assuming they could have found an actor who would have actually been Indian (or at least a very close visual match).

No, the writers and producers of "Space Seed" were idiots. They wrote the line about Khan being a Sikh, yet ignored the recommendations of DeForest Research about proper Sikh names and appearance (Khan and Noonien are not Sikh names and nothing about Khan's appearance says Sikh or even Indian).
I'm not saying they weren't. Saying Marla was an idiot is a possible in-universe explanation for her statements and actions.

That would require the entirety of Sikh culture to have vanished without a trace. So yeah, implausible for a trained historian to get it wrong. Especially one seemingly enamored with the 20th Century,
According to Spock, there was much knowledge that was lost due to the wars (and presumably the breakdown of society; physical libraries would have remained intact only up to the point where people needed paper as fuel more than they wanted to preserve the knowledge in them).

I enjoy studying about the early Roman empire, which was around for a very long time. There were highly literate people in that society who wrote histories of their past and books about their contemporary society. Yet there's a great deal of knowledge that was lost due to fires, wars, earthquakes, and so on. Even today, with the advanced technologies we have for dating and analysis, there will always be some knowledge of that society that we will never know, and can only guess at.

3. Greg Cox did such a wonderful job with his Khan trilogy, I don't even think about what skin tone Ricardo Montalban really was (in fact, I never knew he was any tone other than those he portrayed in "Space Seed" or Bonanza until I saw him on Fantasy Island)
. The first two books were fanwankery to the extreme. The third book was excellent.
The first two books make it plain that Khan was born in India, to an Indian mother.
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Old November 13 2013, 03:16 PM   #305
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
I'll give credit to ST09 in that Nero doesn't just wants to destroy Earth but rather every Federation planet, and he starts with Vulcan.
That doesn't really amount to much when Earth is still the planet that Nero attacks and the crew manages to save. It's like giving a typical girlfriend kidnapping villain credit for saying "I'm going to kidnap the president, the Queen, the prime minister and all the leaders of the world!" Yeah, that's nice, but he still kidnaps your girlfriend and that's the main drive to stop him.

Also, anyone remember what Damon Lindelof said over at Collider?
“They’re in the 23rd century and these people are from Earth. The Earth needed to play more of a role in these movies, especially in the sense of giving the audience a degree of relatability. I think that in the same way that New York City becomes this anchor point for people in the Marvel movies; that’s Spidey’s stomping ground, that was the stomping ground for Tony Stark, that was the stomping ground for The Avengers, it’s New York. We wanted to do the same thing with Earth in the Star Trek movies.”
If Bob, Alex and Damon are close business buddies as they say they are (i.e. They can't stop saying how "brilliant" they are), I think we can all rest assured that Earth will be the center of attention in the next movie. And don't give me that "But they're on their five-year mission into deep space!" baloney. That was essentially the same promise as the last movie with the same mission statement, and all that did was set up a pre-title sequence where after we see the title, everyone is back on Earth.
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Old November 13 2013, 03:38 PM   #306
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Jeyl wrote:
That doesn't really amount to much when Earth is still the planet that Nero attacks and the crew manages to save.
Of course it always helps to think of Earth as America and the rest of the Federation as being its allies and client states, which is the basic analogy Trek was always tacitly built around. The anomaly is always headed for Earth for the same reason that flying saucers never invade Finland or Belgium.

Having said that:

Jeyl wrote:
[Damon Lindelof:]The Earth needed to play more of a role in these movies, especially in the sense of giving the audience a degree of relatability.
An interesting thought experiment with Lindelof is to try to figure out which source or which focus group is behind statements like this, because it's hard to believe that he really believes them. (Though the analogy to Marvel movies explains a lot about the style of writing overall.) My best guess is that this angle focus-groups well in China, where themes of national defense -- and the use of Earth as an allegory with them -- would probably play well. If that's so, maybe we can look forward to the villain in the next movie being an art thief trying to steal Earth's precious historical treasures.

And yet it really is funny. How do films do well in the international market when they contain nary a reference to Earth? Does the number-one grossing SF movie of all time take place on Earth, or involve the heroes defending it like Spidey defends New York, instead of being out... I dunno, trekking somewheres? Does he think Abrams is going to set the next Star Wars trilogy on Earth? (And there's a thought... is he? Now that would be really something... )
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Old November 13 2013, 04:12 PM   #307
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Nerys Myk wrote:
Timewalker wrote: View Post
[3. Greg Cox did such a wonderful job with his Khan trilogy, I don't even think about what skin tone Ricardo Montalban really was (in fact, I never knew he was any tone other than those he portrayed in "Space Seed" or Bonanza until I saw him on Fantasy Island)
. The first two books were fanwankery to the extreme. The third book was excellent.
The first two books make it plain that Khan was born in India, to an Indian mother.
Star Trek and Into Darkness co-writer and producer Bob Orci read Greg Cox's Eugenics Wars novels before writing Into Darkness. Although he chose to ignore much of that Khan's backstory, Spock's mention in the movie that Khan's ongoing work included "exterminating those considered less than superior" is possibly a reference to Khan's endgame plan to kill all non-Augments with modified strep-A at the end of volume 2.
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Old November 13 2013, 05:03 PM   #308
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigJake wrote: View Post
My best guess is that this angle focus-groups well in China, where themes of national defense -- and the use of Earth as an allegory with them -- would probably play well.
And by defense, you of course mean Earth's defense, which in Star Trek Into Darkness is literally depicted as being nonexistent. It really must be asked if Earth could have survived Nero's attack with it's defense grids up when a crippled ship that is being dragged towards Earth by gravity alone all the way from the moon carrying a breach impending warp core could easily cause massive catastrophic damage. It almost feels like having the climax set at Earth was written in as a complete after thought and that the Vengeance and the Enterprise were originally supposed to be in orbit around a barren M-Class planet completely cut off from help. When you have both ships literally a moon's distance from Earth, Starfleet should have known about their presence, especially when communications on the Enterprise still worked and federation ships parked at the orbiting space dock could have detected the ships entering the system.
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Old November 13 2013, 05:08 PM   #309
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
And by defense, you of course mean Earth's defense, which in Star Trek Into Darkness is literally depicted as being nonexistent. It really must be asked if Earth could have survived Nero's attack with it's defense grids up when a crippled ship that is being dragged towards Earth by gravity alone all the way from the moon carrying a breach impending warp core could easily cause massive catastrophic damage. It almost feels like having the climax set at Earth was written in as a complete after thought and that the Vengeance and the Enterprise were originally supposed to be in orbit around a barren M-Class planet completely cut off from help. When you have both ships literally a moon's distance from Earth, Starfleet should have known about their presence, especially when communications on the Enterprise still worked and federation ships parked at the orbiting space dock could have detected the ships entering the system.
It simply could've been the Admiral Marcus ordered that no ships intervene in the conflict. The guy was the commander of Starfleet after all.
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Old November 13 2013, 05:20 PM   #310
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BillJ wrote: View Post
It simply could've been the Admiral Marcus ordered that no ships intervene in the conflict. The guy was the commander of Starfleet after all.
So Starfleet will just sit back and do nothing while a top secret ship that nobody in the Federation knows about armed to the teeth with weapons and firing on the flagship of the Federation while it's defenseless will just sit there and do nothing? Even when both ships are about to crash onto the planet? I think the Federation has a bigger problem with a lack of common sense than it does with officers hellbent on revenge.
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Old November 13 2013, 05:21 PM   #311
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BillJ wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post
And by defense, you of course mean Earth's defense, which in Star Trek Into Darkness is literally depicted as being nonexistent. It really must be asked if Earth could have survived Nero's attack with it's defense grids up when a crippled ship that is being dragged towards Earth by gravity alone all the way from the moon carrying a breach impending warp core could easily cause massive catastrophic damage. It almost feels like having the climax set at Earth was written in as a complete after thought and that the Vengeance and the Enterprise were originally supposed to be in orbit around a barren M-Class planet completely cut off from help. When you have both ships literally a moon's distance from Earth, Starfleet should have known about their presence, especially when communications on the Enterprise still worked and federation ships parked at the orbiting space dock could have detected the ships entering the system.
It simply could've been the Admiral Marcus ordered that no ships intervene in the conflict. The guy was the commander of Starfleet after all.
Shhhhh! They don't like having the obvious answer pointed out.
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Old November 13 2013, 05:46 PM   #312
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
It simply could've been the Admiral Marcus ordered that no ships intervene in the conflict. The guy was the commander of Starfleet after all.
So Starfleet will just sit back and do nothing while a top secret ship that nobody in the Federation knows about armed to the teeth with weapons and firing on the flagship of the Federation while it's defenseless will just sit there and do nothing? Even when both ships are about to crash onto the planet? I think the Federation has a bigger problem with a lack of common sense than it does with officers hellbent on revenge.
See, the problem is that you just don't know how many allies Admiral Marcus has sprinkled throughout the upper echelons of Starfleet Command and how many loyal Captains and other officers are around.

Admiral Leyton from Homefront/Paradise Lost wasn't a one-man show either. It would be near impossible to pull off what Leyton or Marcus did without a Hell of a lot of support.
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Old November 13 2013, 05:50 PM   #313
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
It simply could've been the Admiral Marcus ordered that no ships intervene in the conflict. The guy was the commander of Starfleet after all.
So Starfleet will just sit back and do nothing while a top secret ship that nobody in the Federation knows about armed to the teeth with weapons and firing on the flagship of the Federation while it's defenseless will just sit there and do nothing? Even when both ships are about to crash onto the planet? I think the Federation has a bigger problem with a lack of common sense than it does with officers hellbent on revenge.
Hey, maybe Starfleet functions like the police force in LETHAL WEAPON.

Starfleet: "This is HQ, explain your presence."
Marcus: "It's me, Marcus. I have this under control."
Starfleet: "Okay, we'll let you handle it."

*moments later, both ships are falling towards earth*

Admiral #1: "Hey, shouldn't we do something about this?"
Admiral #2: "Nah, Marcus has it under control."
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Old November 13 2013, 06:03 PM   #314
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
And by defense, you of course mean Earth's defense, which in Star Trek Into Darkness is literally depicted as being nonexistent.
Don't be silly, of course it's not nonexistent.

They had Jim Kirk.

MakeshiftPython wrote:
*moments later, both ships are falling towards earth*

Admiral #1: "Hey, shouldn't we do something about this?"
Admiral #2: "Nah, Marcus has it under control."
Nailed it.
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Old November 13 2013, 07:00 PM   #315
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
It simply could've been the Admiral Marcus ordered that no ships intervene in the conflict. The guy was the commander of Starfleet after all.
So Starfleet will just sit back and do nothing while a top secret ship that nobody in the Federation knows about armed to the teeth with weapons and firing on the flagship of the Federation while it's defenseless will just sit there and do nothing? Even when both ships are about to crash onto the planet? I think the Federation has a bigger problem with a lack of common sense than it does with officers hellbent on revenge.
Earth being left defenseless is pretty standard Trek storytelling. You just have to pick a handwave that works for you. I go the feeling that when Marcus passes judgement on the Enterprise crew, he was putting on a show for the official record. So it's entirely possible that as far as the rest of the fleet goes: Kirk's in league with the terrorist. Marcus could have given them orders to stay out of the fight cause Kirk had some super weapon that only Marcus and his ship could deal with.

As for Vengenance being top secret. Marcus had a model of her on his desk. I'm not 100% certain that she was completely top secret beyond her modifications. The class might have been developed for some other use (example: Long range explorer) and Marcus hijacked the project to build his super ship.
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