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Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old November 12 2013, 07:43 PM   #271
BigJake
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Even before STID, Berman Era Trek had turned Khan into a Dictator on par with Hitler, a man so feared that Earth and Starfleet was terrified of there ever being another one like him. That's not the work of a skilled diplomat, that's someone that was racking and stacking bodies.
Well it was called the Eugenics Wars, and it's unmistakable that Khan and his fellow tyrants didn't play nicely together and caused a lot of death in the process. Obviously nobody would want the return of that. The TOS assessment of Khan as a ruler is obviously not referring to the whole aspect of the world being at war but to his characteristics as a potentate within his own borders.

If the idea of departing from that was invented by some iteration of Berman Era Trek, again I don't think that's necessarily a huge endorsement of it (quintuply not, for my taste, if the Berman Era Trek you have in mind is Enterprise, with apologies to any fans of such here present)... though TBH I mostly remember the never-seen "Li Kuan" being pressed into service as Obligatory Future Dictator on lists involving Hitler.
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Old November 12 2013, 08:00 PM   #272
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigJake wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Even before STID, Berman Era Trek had turned Khan into a Dictator on par with Hitler, a man so feared that Earth and Starfleet was terrified of there ever being another one like him. That's not the work of a skilled diplomat, that's someone that was racking and stacking bodies.
Well it was called the Eugenics Wars, and it's unmistakable that Khan and his fellow tyrants didn't play nicely together and caused a lot of death in the process. Obviously nobody would want the return of that. The TOS assessment of Khan as a ruler is obviously not referring to the whole aspect of the world being at war but to his characteristics as a potentate within his own borders.

If the idea of departing from that was invented by some iteration of Berman Era Trek, again I don't think that's necessarily a huge endorsement of it (quintuply not, for my taste, if the Berman Era Trek you have in mind is Enterprise, with apologies to any fans of such here present)... though TBH I mostly remember the never-seen "Li Kuan" being pressed into service as Obligatory Future Dictator on lists involving Hitler.
TOS said "Under his rule". Which tells his nothing of the nature of his rise to power.
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Old November 12 2013, 08:05 PM   #273
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Even before STID, Berman Era Trek had turned Khan into a Dictator on par with Hitler, a man so feared that Earth and Starfleet was terrified of there ever being another one like him. That's not the work of a skilled diplomat, that's someone that was racking and stacking bodies.
Sounds like a retcon if I ever heard one. If Starfleet was so terrified of him and any of his kind coming back, why doesn't Kirk seem any at all worried about it? Why leave someone on a planet where they could potentially rise and conquer the galaxy? Because that wasn't the intent of his character, nor the story. You think the writers of Space Seed thought that this exchange in the end was just there as a joke?
Spock: It would be interesting, Captain, to return to that world in a hundred years and to learn what crop has sprung from the seed you planted today.
Kirk: Yes, Mister Spock, it would indeed.
I mean, why would a group of enlightened humans say this about a man who was so merciless that he was, as you say, racking and stacking bodies? NO ONE SAYS THIS!
McCoy: The last of the tyrants to be overthrown.
Scotty: I must confess, gentlemen. I've always held a sneaking admiration for this one.
Kirk: He was the best of the tyrants and the most dangerous. They were supermen, in a sense. Stronger, braver, certainly more ambitious, more daring.
Spock: Gentlemen, this romanticism about a ruthless dictator is-
Kirk: Mister Spock, we humans have a streak of barbarism in us. Appalling, but there, nevertheless.
Scotty: There were no massacres under his rule.
Spock: As very little freedom.
McCoy: No wars until he was attacked.
Spock: Gentlemen...
*Everyone laughs*
Kirk: Mr. Spock, you misunderstand us. We can be against him and admire him all at the same time.
Spock: Illogical.
Kirk: Totally.
Yeah, I'm sure someone who massacred whole groups of people just because he wanted to would totally draw admiration from our enlightened heroes like Kirk, Scotty and McCoy. After all, the only thing Spock has against Khan is that his rule allowed for very little freedom. If the stuff involving massacres and genocide was a legitimate part of his history, why doesn't anyone bring any of this up?
Scotty: There were no massacres under his rule.
Spock: There were. He killed so many people that he's been compared to Hitler.
Scotty: Oh....
McCoy: No wars until he was attacked.
Spock: He wanted to wage a bloody genocidal war against anyone he deemed inferior.
McCoy: Oh....
Kirk: We can be against him and admire him all at the same time.
Spock: What is there to admire in genocide, Captain?
Kirk: Oh....
Khan: On Earth, 200 years ago, I was a prince with power over millions!
Chekov: Not true! You wanted to kill anyone you deemed less than superior!
Khan: Oh....
Oh, sure. Let's not take the writers or creators of Khan at their word that Khan isn't a psychopath. Let's take it from Rick Berman and Brannon Bragga, the two individuals who not only helped solidify everything that most people hate about Star Trek, but also took part in killing both the TV and film franchises before JJ took over.
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Old November 12 2013, 08:09 PM   #274
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Not even Berman turned Khan into a mass murderer. At least not in DS9.


And I don't get why people assume that a dictator has to be a mass murderer as well. Remove the concentration camps, and Hitler would have still been a dictator, and Germans would have still had only very little freedom.
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Old November 12 2013, 08:09 PM   #275
Jeyl
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
TOS said "Under his rule". Which tells his nothing of the nature of his rise to power.
It was also stated that he wasn't the only one to rise to power.
Spock: In 1993, a group of these young supermen did seize power simultaneously in over forty nations.

McCoy: The last of the tyrants to be overthrown.
Kirk: He was the best of the tyrants, and the most dangerous.
Maybe all those deaths weren't caused by Khan, but the other tyrants.
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Old November 12 2013, 08:11 PM   #276
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post

TOS said "Under his rule". Which tells his nothing of the nature of his rise to power.
Spock also says that records of the time were "fragmentary". Which means they would likely have an incomplete picture of Khan's rule.
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Old November 12 2013, 08:20 PM   #277
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BillJ wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post

TOS said "Under his rule". Which tells his nothing of the nature of his rise to power.
Spock also says that records of the time were "fragmentary". Which means they would likely have an incomplete picture of Khan's rule.
Yeppers...no, no, wait, we know Khan was all gumdrops and lollipops. He was a cuddly dictator.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
TOS said "Under his rule". Which tells his nothing of the nature of his rise to power.
It was also stated that he wasn't the only one to rise to power.
Spock: In 1993, a group of these young supermen did seize power simultaneously in over forty nations.

McCoy: The last of the tyrants to be overthrown.
Kirk: He was the best of the tyrants, and the most dangerous.
Maybe all those deaths weren't caused by Khan, but the other tyrants.
Eugenics WAR. So it's very likely than in his rise to the top, he racked up the bodycount--Augment and normal alike. TOS shows us that he had little use for people that don't join his cause. Or you do you think the other Augments just scuffed their feet and said "well shoot Mr. Khan, when you put it that way...".
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Old November 12 2013, 08:55 PM   #278
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
we know Khan was all gumdrops and lollipops. He was a cuddly dictator.[*]
Come on, man. You aren't going to refute Jeyl's point by caricaturing it. And I don't think you genuinely need telling that there's a pretty large distance between "Hitlerite madman" and "misunderstood saint."

(It's already established in TOS that Khan and the other tyrants killed in war... and also that Kirk and McCoy regard him as less bad than the others for fighting only when attacked. As has been pointed out, it is genuinely pretty hard to get around stuff like that if you want to argue that Space Seed was in fact portraying him as Hitlerite Evil.)

* For comedic potential, though, I have to admit that the "cuddly dictator" notion does bring a rich trove of Khan parodies to mind. What if the shameful secrets of Khan's rule were Cuddly Secrets? His passion for fancy pastries, his love for unicorns and Pokemon, his top-secret Kitten Defense Fund... the Cuddly Khan Comic practically writes itself.
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Old November 12 2013, 09:08 PM   #279
Jeyl
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
TOS shows us that he had little use for people that don't join his cause.
Yep. When Khan had little use for the remaining three quarters of world who would not accept his rule, he.... got attacked by them four years later.

I'm not trying to argue that Khan was a saint. He was a very ambitious and dangerous individual. All I'm saying is that he was more than just a bad guy who wanted to kill people. The part of him that wanted to rule, build an empire, win a world. The STID writing trio didn't seem to think so. Being the most recognized villain in Star Trek, they pretty much decided to solidify that he was just a bad guy who just wants to kill people. They act it out and even spell it out.

When I look at Space Seed, I don't see that. Heck, even when I look at TWOK, his eventual demise is still tragic in and of itself because we'll never know what kind of a world Khan would have helped build. And since these movies are now action movies, I don't think the team have any desire to pursue stories like that. And if you like your direction, that's fine. Just don't tell me that NuKhan is exactly the same as the original. Not in terms of race, ethnic groups or skin color, but character.
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Old November 12 2013, 09:13 PM   #280
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigJake wrote: View Post
* For comedic potential, though, I have to admit that the "cuddly dictator" notion does bring a rich trove of Khan parodies to mind. What if the shameful secrets of Khan's rule were Cuddly Secrets? His passion for fancy pastries, his love for unicorns and Pokemon, his top-secret Kitten Defense Fund... the Cuddly Khan Comic practically writes itself.
There's a parody of Space Seed in one of the Best of Trek books called "Requiem for a Hack".
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Old November 12 2013, 09:15 PM   #281
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
TOS shows us that he had little use for people that don't join his cause.
Yep. When Khan had little use for the remaining three quarters of world who would not accept his rule, he.... got attacked by them four years later.

I'm not trying to argue that Khan was a saint. He was a very ambitious and dangerous individual. All I'm saying is that he was more than just a bad guy who wanted to kill people. The part of him that wanted to rule, build an empire, win a world. The STID writing trio didn't seem to think so. Being the most recognized villain in Star Trek, they pretty much decided to solidify that he was just a bad guy who just wants to kill people. They act it out and even spell it out.

When I look at Space Seed, I don't see that. Heck, even when I look at TWOK, his eventual demise is still tragic in and of itself because we'll never know what kind of a world Khan would have helped build. And since these movies are now action movies, I don't think the team have any desire to pursue stories like that. And if you like your direction, that's fine. Just don't tell me that NuKhan is exactly the same as the original. Not in terms of race, ethnic groups or skin color, but character.
Not saying there are the same character by the time we meet Nu-Khan. Yes, I see them as being the same man before the split in the timeline; the same historical figure and the same actions undertaken. I think STID's ideal that he's a war criminal and a genocidal supremacist , jives just fine with TOS and his smug superior attitude. And fits into the ideal that TNG+ introduced that another Khan must be avoided at all costs.

But we see two different men when each Kirk runs into them.

Nu-Khan was humbled, leashed, and had his crew (his family as his calls them) used against him. What we see is a man that's been used and looked down. And abused animal that's turning on it's master.

In Space Seed we had a Khan that was woke up, idol worshipped, and had the senior staff (minus Spock) in awe of him. Khan woke up and saw a world that still admired him.
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Old November 12 2013, 09:26 PM   #282
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
There's a parody of Space Seed in one of the Best of Trek books called "Requiem for a Hack".
Heh, I'll have to check it out...
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Old November 12 2013, 09:35 PM   #283
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
The whole fucking briefing room exchange makes it clear that they're only alive cause he needs their training. If they don't join him, they're fucked--training or not.
Tone the language down please.
Considering the frequency and extraordinarily long persistence of your favorite "Kirk is an a**hole" rallying cry, I sincerely hope you'll forgive me if I view this request with some small degree of skepticism.
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Old November 13 2013, 12:30 AM   #284
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigJake wrote: View Post
Why not have him be a different remnant of the Eugenics Wars, or something else entirely?
I don't disagree. Personally, that's the way I would have done it (assuming this was the story they wanted to tell). Make him Joachim, or another lieutenant of Khan. But I'm not the target of Trek marketing decisions. I'm a hardcore Trekkie, I was going to see the movie in any case. I'm just glad I had a movie that I love (while acknowledging their faults) who managed the not-easy task of pleasing a large section of Trekkies, and the general movie-goer population. I understand why people dislike it, but if the choice is between a movie targeted only to Trekkies that will bomb at the box-office and nearly kill the franchise (cue Nemesis) and a movie targeted to everybody (including a majority of Trekkies) that is a success and ensures the continuation of the legacy at the expenses of a few purists... well, I'm sorry. The need of the many and all that jazz.

Story-wise, there was no need for John Harrison to be Khan. Marketing-wise, there was no way they were going to do a "revenge of the augment" plot and not have John Harrison be Khan. I have no troubles accounting for real-life reasons in this.

BigJake wrote: View Post
Did the movie or the reboot franchise as a whole really gain that much from putting itself in the same frame as TWOK?
Numbers. And in the end, that's the bottom line. It was the bottom line in TOS, the bottom line in TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT, and it is the bottom line for Abram's Trek. Khan was too much of a crowd teaser to avoid him.
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Old November 13 2013, 02:11 AM   #285
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
So you're saying that Khan had to be played by a white actor wearing brown make-up, who speaks with a Spanish accent on the grounds of consistency?
Don't be obtuse.
Sarcasm ( something even Spock would recognize) and a touch of hyperbole to point out the absurdity of your statement. Which you've kindly reiterated below

However they manage it, the skin tone in later productions should have been at least close to Original Khan. And yes, they should have used an actor who could pull off a similar accent.
So yes to brown face and a Spanish accent for character who's supposed to be a Sikh and an Indian?


1. Marla was an idiot.
No, the writers and producers of "Space Seed" were idiots. They wrote the line about Khan being a Sikh, yet ignored the recommendations of DeForest Research about proper Sikh names and appearance (Khan and Noonien are not Sikh names and nothing about Khan's appearance says Sikh or even Indian).

I guess they figured the audience was too dumb to notice.

2. It's barely plausible that the historical records she studied about Sikhs contained incomplete or incorrect information.
That would require the entirety of Sikh culture to have vanished without a trace. So yeah, implausible for a trained historian to get it wrong. Especially one seemingly enamored with the 20th Century,

3. Greg Cox did such a wonderful job with his Khan trilogy, I don't even think about what skin tone Ricardo Montalban really was (in fact, I never knew he was any tone other than those he portrayed in "Space Seed" or Bonanza until I saw him on Fantasy Island)
. The first two books were fanwankery to the extreme. The third book was excellent.

Set Hart wrote:
He can be an ethnic Sikh without being a practicing Sikh. His surname implies that he is most likely ethnically Sikh.
Which doesn't explain how Marla would know he's a Sikh on sight, when she doesn't know his name.

All male Sikhs adopt the name "Singh", so no matter what name Khan was born with. it would have changed to "Singh" when becoming a Sikh. My speculation is "Khan Noonien Singh" is not his real name, but one he took upon his rise to power. Khan to appeal to the Muslim population and Singh to appeal to Hindus and Sikhs. No clue about Noonien. Maybe it appeals to Buddhists.
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