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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old November 11 2013, 04:35 AM   #16
drt
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Re: Commander Kirk

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Since Kirk presumably walked right out of Starfleet after being bumped back to the academy, then went straight from the bar to the emergency meeting, he didn't have time to requisition a new uniform.
That's how I interpreted it.
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Old November 11 2013, 05:59 AM   #17
Avro Arrow
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Re: Commander Kirk

hammerhead wrote: View Post
Avro Arrow wrote: View Post

I just checked the scene in question on the DVD, and Kirk is still wearing captain's insignia at the meeting.
Thanks for checking Avro Arrow, so it seems he didn't have time for a uniform change or he was still Captain as Spock believed. But Kirk specifically corrected him and seemed to be ok when Spock called him Commander.

Was Spock wearing the right insignia in that scene? Guess it's all moot as Marcus obviously reversed the demotion, but it'd be nice to get confirmation that the demotion occurred!
Spock was wearing a full commander's insignia. As Hartzilla2007 mentioned, Spock wasn't actually demoted, so this insignia was correct.

Lance wrote: View Post
That he is demoted to executive officer of Enterprise is beyond doubt.

Although he acknowledges that his 'official' rank in that position is Commander, as Pike has been made Captain of the Enterprise again, maybe that doesn't necessarily mean that his actual rank takes a hit. Maybe he can still technically be a Captain and yet also be an XO/Commander. His "spoken rank" is really only reflective of his position aboard the ship, at least for the 20 seconds that Pike has resumed the Captaincy anyway.
Pike was still wearing admiral's insignia at the meeting, too. We really don't know if they demoted Pike to captain, or were just going to have him command the Enterprise but retain his admiral rank. They technically could take away Kirk's command and still leave him ranked as a captain. But then why would Kirk correct Spock when Spock called him "captain"?

Interestingly, Spock is the only one that calls Kirk "Commander", and only after Kirk tells him to not call him captain. Pike and Marcus both speak to Kirk during the meeting, but neither refer to his rank.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Since Kirk presumably walked right out of Starfleet after being bumped back to the academy, then went straight from the bar to the emergency meeting, he didn't have time to requisition a new uniform.
Well, he went somewhere between the bar and the meeting, because he was wearing civilian clothes in the bar. (Pike specifically told him to "suit up".) But yeah, you're right that he probably just grabbed the uniform he had available and didn't have time to requisition a new one.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
The Abramsverse seems a bit cavalier about rank, though
Yeah, this is true.
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Old November 11 2013, 08:36 AM   #18
Nexarc
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Re: Commander Kirk

I'm not sure how closely Starfleet follows naval tradition, but from how I see it, Spock is not totally incorrect about calling Kirk 'Commander'.

Traditionally the commanding officer of a vessel is addressed as "captain" regardless of actual rank held though a flag officer in the chair may retain his/her normal title of address. Since the ship's master is THE Captain, captains from other branches on board are verbally called by the next highest rank (Army/Air Force/Marine Captain -> Major) to avoid confusing the crew.

Kirk lost the command position, but I don't recall him losing rank. As he still holds the rank of Captain, he cannot be "promoted" as Commodore/Rear Admiral is a flag officer rank. Spock had no evidence that an Admiral such as Pike was assuming command rather than another captain, so the only other choice from his perspective was a verbal 'demotion' to Commander.
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Old November 11 2013, 11:26 AM   #19
Lance
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Re: Commander Kirk

That was kinda my interpretation. He has not been stripped in rank per se but only in his position on the Enterprise. If "Admiral" Pike is in command then *he* is the Captain - which means that Kirk as the executive officer is the Commander regardless of his actual official rank being Captain. Spock correctly calls him Captain but Kirk corrects him by underlining that he is really a Commander now to all extents and purposes.
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Old November 13 2013, 08:42 AM   #20
ROBE
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Re: Commander Kirk

People often confuse the rank of captain with the position of captain.
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Old November 13 2013, 09:35 AM   #21
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Re: Commander Kirk

Kirk should have been a commander at most at the end of the first film (or Lt-commander if they had kept Spock at that rank too) so he could have spent a stint as a naughty first officer instead of an apallingly bad, dangerous starship captain. His progression in the movies is good, just not the unnecessary rank hike.
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Old November 14 2013, 02:06 AM   #22
Cara007
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Re: Commander Kirk

I wished when they stripped off Kirk's captain's title. He did not get it back five minutes later. I wished he got reinstated as captain at the very end of the film. That would have made the writing better.
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Old November 15 2013, 03:30 AM   #23
C.E. Evans
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Re: Commander Kirk

Position is more important than rank in Starfleet (with the latter more of an afterthought, IMO), just like how Chekov became chief engineer as an ensign even though there were probably full lieutenants under his command during that time.

I think that had things gone differently, later on Pike may have returned to a captain's uniform and Kirk's uniform would have commander's insignia. But as things happened very quickly with Kh--John Harrison, there wasn't time for new uniforms. Heck, Kirk didn't even have time to get into a proper uniform until after everything was settled in Star Trek XI.
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Old November 15 2013, 03:47 AM   #24
Lance
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Re: Commander Kirk

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Kirk should have been a commander at most at the end of the first film (or Lt-commander if they had kept Spock at that rank too) so he could have spent a stint as a naughty first officer instead of an apallingly bad, dangerous starship captain. His progression in the movies is good, just not the unnecessary rank hike.
To be fair, the reason for that was mandated by the studio. The suits weren't entirely convinced that 'Star Trek' would be successful enough to spawn sequels, so they wanted to hedge their bets and insisted the movie end with all the TOS characters in their regular places heading 'out there'. This necessitated unrealistically bumping Kirk up in rank.

'Into Darkness' kind of tries to "fix" the situation by busting Kirk back down a peg or two, but it isn't a perfect fix. IMO in an ideal world, the 2009 movie would have suggested the crew all going off to other assignments at the end (so as to imply they each have some kind of further career before Enterprise), with STID then finding an excuse to bring them all back together again and finally sealing the deal of them all staying together at the end.
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Old November 17 2013, 12:11 PM   #25
Pauln6
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Re: Commander Kirk

Lance wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Kirk should have been a commander at most at the end of the first film (or Lt-commander if they had kept Spock at that rank too) so he could have spent a stint as a naughty first officer instead of an apallingly bad, dangerous starship captain. His progression in the movies is good, just not the unnecessary rank hike.
To be fair, the reason for that was mandated by the studio. The suits weren't entirely convinced that 'Star Trek' would be successful enough to spawn sequels, so they wanted to hedge their bets and insisted the movie end with all the TOS characters in their regular places heading 'out there'. This necessitated unrealistically bumping Kirk up in rank.

'Into Darkness' kind of tries to "fix" the situation by busting Kirk back down a peg or two, but it isn't a perfect fix. IMO in an ideal world, the 2009 movie would have suggested the crew all going off to other assignments at the end (so as to imply they each have some kind of further career before Enterprise), with STID then finding an excuse to bring them all back together again and finally sealing the deal of them all staying together at the end.
For me, they could have promoted Kirk to first officer on a another ship with him cheekily announcing that some day soon he'll be back on the Enterprise or possibly even FF a couple of years in a scene at the end of the credits and show Kirk striding onto the bridge, newly promoted. He'd still be green but not unrealistically green.

Similarly, they could have promoted a more senior engineer to the position of chief but used Chekov as the liaison with the bridge to deliver all the dialogue.

I don't expect Star Trek to be perfect but if they dip the level of realism and scientific plausibility too low it becomes more of a children's franchise and I think that would be a shame.
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