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Old November 7 2013, 07:01 PM   #16
Jarvisimo
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Re: What next for Section 31? [SPOILERS]

I guess Jake and Nog have no way of knowing the veracity of their sources, though! I kind of think of S31 as having something akin to the cell structure of the Obsidian Order depicted in A Stitch in Time.

EDIT: and apparently a taste for big institutions about Jupiter

Last edited by Jarvisimo; November 7 2013 at 08:42 PM.
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Old November 7 2013, 08:46 PM   #17
David Mack
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Re: What next for Section 31? [SPOILERS]

bfollowell wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
Hm. I honestly don't remember the part where Section 31 threatened genocide against the Andorians; my interpretation was that Section 31 was threatening to blow up Deep Space 9 to make sure that the Meta-Genome data didn't get leaked. Where did I miss this?
Well, I'm just wrapping up A Ceremony of Losses and I know what he's talking about. It isn't that Section 31 said that they'd do that or threatened to do that. Sarina and Bashir are talking before they commit to taking the route that they do and Sarina suggests the lengths Section 31 may go to to protect their secrets. I'm not quite finished yet. I have about 40 pages to go but I don't think anyone other than Sarina suggests this.

The conversation takes place in chapter eight on page 79 or 80. She says

Just to be clear about my intent when I wrote that scene, it's possible that, in a moment of heightened anxiety, Sarina might have indulged in a *wee bit* of exaggeration on that last detail.
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Old November 7 2013, 11:50 PM   #18
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Re: What next for Section 31? [SPOILERS]

After all, 31 has almost certainly had Andorians in their ranks since United Earth became part of the Federation. And probably still had Andorians in their ranks even after the secession vote.

In any case, I can't see "the bureau" not wanting a positive outcome re: Andor rejoining the UFP by way of Bashir's actions or those of anyone else they knew of with an interest in making it happen. They may be pragmatists, and they're certainly ruthless. But loyalty to something does imply a sentimental streak in there somewhere.
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Old November 11 2013, 02:54 AM   #19
ITCH
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Re: What next for Section 31? [SPOILERS]

[QUOTE=Hartzilla2007;8859919]
rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
So.
I am taken aback by the idea that Section 31 would likely commit genocide against a species that was literally in the heart of the Federation. That is altogether different from committing mass murder against distant peoples of whom practically nothing is known. It's the difference between having your military go out beyond the frontiers and start massacring foreigners and having your military come into your cities and start killing everyone in sight.

This is astonishing recklessness. Am I wrong in thinking that a secretive organization ready to undertake such radical actions without authorization is set for a hard fall?
Thoughts?
In WWII the Allies allowed some of their own cities to be attacked because they didn’t want their enemies to know they cracked their communications codes so, they could counter attack on more important targets.

As Odo said in DS9, all great power in the galaxy has their own intelligence force. The Obsidian Order and the Tal Shiar didn’t hesitate to sacrifice their own people for the greater good. Why would Section 31 be any different?

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Old November 11 2013, 03:53 AM   #20
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Re: What next for Section 31? [SPOILERS]

The difference is that Section 31 isn't a legally sanctioned entity like the Tal Shiar or Obsidian Order. Hell the Obsidian Order was part of the official power sharing triumverate in the Cardassian Union.

Whereas Starfleet Intelligence appears to be the actual "official" part of intelligence gathering for Starfleet, and is Elias Vaughn and T'Prynn's actions are any indications, pretty good at the job and also willing to do some shady stuff in the bargain.

Section 31 otoh is a complete rogue agency who at times appears to do stuff that's not entirely consistent with the Federation's national interest.
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Old November 11 2013, 04:11 AM   #21
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Re: What next for Section 31? [SPOILERS]

ITCH wrote: View Post
In WWII the Allies allowed some of their own cities to be attacked because they didn’t want their enemies to know they cracked their communications codes so, they could counter attack on more important targets.
You must be referring to the claim that Churchill let Coventry be bombed to avoid exposing an intelligence asset. That's actually a myth that didn't arise until 1974 and has been discredited. The British government was aware that a raid was being planned, but didn't know the target, and when news came that it had been launched, they assumed the target was London and were taken by surprise when it turned out to be Coventry, because they didn't decode that information in time.

http://www.winstonchurchill.org/lear...-coventry-burn
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coventr...ntry_and_Ultra

There's also a myth that FDR knew Pearl Harbor was coming and let it happen to anger Americans enough to get us into the war, but that's never been more than a crackpot conspiracy theory.


Nob Akimoto wrote: View Post
The difference is that Section 31 isn't a legally sanctioned entity like the Tal Shiar or Obsidian Order.
Exactly. I'm amazed how many people confuse Section 31 for a legitimate intelligence agency like Starfleet Intelligence. An intelligence agency has the oversight of its government and the legal authority to act. Section 31 is an unsanctioned, extralegal cabal within Starfleet. It's essentially a criminal organization, a conspiracy in the ranks.
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Old November 11 2013, 04:19 AM   #22
ITCH
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Re: What next for Section 31? [SPOILERS]

David Mack wrote: View Post
bfollowell wrote: View Post
The conversation takes place in chapter eight on page 79 or 80. She says

Just to be clear about my intent when I wrote that scene, it's possible that, in a moment of heightened anxiety, Sarina might have indulged in a *wee bit* of exaggeration on that last detail.
Sarina may have had a "heightened anxiety attack" but in my opinion that was well into character an according to canon. Those who watched DS9 episode "Statistical Probabilities" would know the kind of radical (although not entirely incorrect) assessments the "Jack Pack" was capable of (and Sarina was part of that group). And in episode “Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges” we see Section 31 is not above bending the rules and frame “innocent” third parties when it serves its cause.

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Old November 11 2013, 06:42 AM   #23
ITCH
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Re: What next for Section 31? [SPOILERS]

Christopher wrote: View Post
You must be referring to the claim that Churchill let Coventry be bombed to avoid exposing an intelligence asset. That's actually a myth that didn't arise until 1974 and has been discredited.

Section 31 is an unsanctioned, extralegal cabal within Starfleet. It's essentially a criminal organization, a conspiracy in the ranks.
Thank you for this information. I will take the time to read the cited sources. In the meantime, I’m putting “on hold” the argument about the “possibility” that civilians or even soldiers of the same side were sacrificed for a greater tactical good because I concede there's a fault in my argument: Section 31 is not a government sanctioned like the Tal Shiar, the Obsidian Order, the CIA, the KGB, etc.

Now, do I think it’s heading to its fall? No.

1. Section 31 is an extralegal immoral agency with its own agenda but when Starfleet itself needed its help it didn’t hesitate to use it (DS9 “Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges” and J.J. Abrams “Into the darkness”). And based on canon, they have some impressive connections…

2. Mr. Akimoto says: “Section 31 otoh is a complete rogue agency who at times appears to do stuff that's not entirely consistent with the Federation's national interest”. There’s no question they are doing things that are not consistent with Federation values but doing things that will cause its extermination in the long run would be... illogical since it has a parasitical relationship with it. The Federation may survive without S31 but S31 has no reason to exist without the Federation.

So, Section 31 has a future? I sure hope so! For the sake of a good interesting plot with lots of posibilities...
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Old November 11 2013, 07:30 AM   #24
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Re: What next for Section 31? [SPOILERS]

ITCH wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
You must be referring to the claim that Churchill let Coventry be bombed to avoid exposing an intelligence asset. That's actually a myth that didn't arise until 1974 and has been discredited.

Section 31 is an unsanctioned, extralegal cabal within Starfleet. It's essentially a criminal organization, a conspiracy in the ranks.
Thank you for this information. I will take the time to read the cited sources. In the meantime, I’m putting “on hold” the argument about the “possibility” that civilians or even soldiers of the same side were sacrificed for a greater tactical good because I concede there's a fault in my argument: Section 31 is not a government sanctioned like the Tal Shiar, the Obsidian Order, the CIA, the KGB, etc.

Now, do I think it’s heading to its fall? No.
The 2007 ENT novel The Good That Men Do by Michael A. Martin and Andy Mangels established explicitly that by the early 25th Century, Section 31 has been exposed, its members brought to justice, its assets seized by the government, its secrets released to the public, and the organization itself dissolved.

2. Mr. Akimoto says: “Section 31 otoh is a complete rogue agency who at times appears to do stuff that's not entirely consistent with the Federation's national interest”. There’s no question they are doing things that are not consistent with Federation values but doing things that will cause its extermination in the long run would be... illogical since it has a parasitical relationship with it.
What makes you think Section 31 is being rational in how it determines what is or is not in the Federation's best interests?
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Old November 11 2013, 11:21 AM   #25
Jarvisimo
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Re: What next for Section 31? [SPOILERS]

Sci wrote: View Post
ITCH wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
You must be referring to the claim that Churchill let Coventry be bombed to avoid exposing an intelligence asset. That's actually a myth that didn't arise until 1974 and has been discredited.

Section 31 is an unsanctioned, extralegal cabal within Starfleet. It's essentially a criminal organization, a conspiracy in the ranks.
Thank you for this information. I will take the time to read the cited sources. In the meantime, I’m putting “on hold” the argument about the “possibility” that civilians or even soldiers of the same side were sacrificed for a greater tactical good because I concede there's a fault in my argument: Section 31 is not a government sanctioned like the Tal Shiar, the Obsidian Order, the CIA, the KGB, etc.

Now, do I think it’s heading to its fall? No.
The 2007 ENT novel The Good That Men Do by Michael A. Martin and Andy Mangels established explicitly that by the early 25th Century, Section 31 has been exposed, its members brought to justice, its assets seized by the government, its secrets released to the public, and the organization itself dissolved.
We have no proof that the entirety of the organisation is so exposed: Jake and Nog could just be very naive? Unless it really is just L'Haan and the others from A Time To..., as readers we have no idea how large or small, how cellular an organisation, 31 is. It certainly doesn't seem to be centralised, unless L'Haan is that centre.
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Old November 11 2013, 02:13 PM   #26
ITCH
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Re: What next for Section 31? [SPOILERS]

Sci wrote: View Post
What makes you think Section 31 is being rational in how it determines what is or is not in the Federation's best interests?
Self-preservation? Self image? Granted, those are not necessarily "rational" but after all they "...are on the same team, they believe in the same principles that every other Federation citizen holds dear..." (Sloan. DS9 : "Inquisition").

And on second thought, just because something is government sanctioned like the Tal Shiar, Obsidian Order or any real intelligence force today, that doesn’t make their actions "legal" or "moral". If 1/3 of all their cases were to become public (and evidence of them could be retrieve!) I wonder how many would stick in a civilian court of law. Like the case of Alexander Litvinenko or the Gestapo.

Ironically, I find S31 refreshingly “honest”. They are above the law, they admit it and they act like it. They don’t give you the tiresome “this is for the good of the State or Empire speach and then they shoot you in the head, they just do it”.

As an organization, they have their mission and vision very clear, they think ahead or at least plan for the future and they move with the changes. As such, they existed for at least 2 centuries, assuming Michael A. Martin and Andy Mangels story gets followed by TPTB (BTW, thanks for the data Sci) so, my money is still on them for at least several decades more in Star Trek 24 century universe.
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Old November 11 2013, 09:44 PM   #27
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Re: What next for Section 31? [SPOILERS]

ITCH wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
What makes you think Section 31 is being rational in how it determines what is or is not in the Federation's best interests?
Self-preservation? Self image? Granted, those are not necessarily "rational" but after all they "...are on the same team, they believe in the same principles that every other Federation citizen holds dear..." (Sloan. DS9 : "Inquisition").
Do they really?

The principles which condone attempted genocide--against the Founders in DS9 and against the Tezwans in A Time to ..., apparently achieved against numerous unknown potential threat species as mentioned in Rogue--are not principles held dear by Federation citizens. The Federation didn't follow up the Dominion War by finishing the job that Jem'Hadar had started on the Cardassians, but rather extended an extensive decade-long aid program.

And on second thought, just because something is government sanctioned like the Tal Shiar, Obsidian Order or any real intelligence force today, that doesn’t make their actions "legal" or "moral". If 1/3 of all their cases were to become public (and evidence of them could be retrieve!) I wonder how many would stick in a civilian court of law. Like the case of Alexander Litvinenko or the Gestapo.
Having a secret police, interior ministry, or whatever that is responsible to the constitutional government of a polity is essential if that government is to exercise any control over its actions. Having an unaccountable agency present multiple fait accomplis to the government it claims to represent poses a serious threat to the government and the people its rules over.

Consider the documented attempted genocide by Section 31, the Changeling virus inflicted upon the Founders. The infection was not authorized by the Federation, but it was something that the Federation couldn't deal with even after it found out. How could it tell the Dominion that it had infected the Founders with a lethal virus and not avoid retaliation? The Section 31 gambit had a serious risk of backfiring: if the Dominion had a record of committing genocide even against merely rebellious species, what would it do to civilizations that were responsible for an attempted gencide against the Founders themselves?
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Old November 12 2013, 02:55 AM   #28
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Re: What next for Section 31? [SPOILERS]

Section 31 simply does whatever it WANTS. That alone makes it extremely dangerous.
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Old November 13 2013, 06:08 AM   #29
ITCH
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Re: What next for Section 31? [SPOILERS]

rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
The Section 31 gambit had a serious risk of backfiring: if the Dominion had a record of committing genocide even against merely rebellious species, what would it do to civilizations that were responsible for an attempted gencide against the Founders themselves?
From what I saw of S31 in DS9 they didn’t strike me as “reckless”. Cold blooded, yes, but they do think things through. As Bashir said to Sloan in episode “Inter Arma…”: “This war isn't over and you're already planning for the next!”. I’m sure S31 had access to the analysis the Jack pack made of the Dominion War in “Statistical Probabilities”. According to that analysis the odds were completely against the Federation and the best option was to surrender in order to survive and fight another day. I have no military training but from what I read and watched on tv and movies, there’s a “tactic” that when you’re up your neck, with nowhere to go, no hope of rescue or reinforcement, and the enemy is not going to spare your life even if you surrender, you may as well attack and hope to take a couple more of enemies lives before you go down. So, S31 went for it.

And what if the Dominion retaliated? They were already decimating Starfleet and civil populations in both the Gamma and Alfa Quadrants!. What else could they do? Make fun of Starfleet uniforms to hurt some feelings?

I agree that If you take S31 to a court of law I’m sure not even OJ Simpson and Zimmerman’s lawyers can set them out (or maybe they can…). The point is: S31 believe they are the “good guys” and their cause is justified. That kind of belief and commitment to a cause is a force to reckon. We saw it in the genocide of the Aztecs and Maya civilizations by the Spanish crown, and the colonization of Africa by Germany, England and France . Heck! Even the Borg didn’t think they were the “bad guys”. They were just bringing order to a chaotic universe.

And we are not sure how S31 is organized but if it’s anything like the Drug Cartels or Al Qaeda, you haven’t finished writing your press release about capturing “the head” when the replacement is already sipping champagne and celebrating the promotion.

I gotta tell you, if TPTB ends S31 by capturing their “headquarters” and finding all their secrets lying around in the coffee table I would be VERY disappointed, because that would mean Arthur Andersen made a better job destroying evidence linking them to Enron than a 200+ years extra legal organization!!!
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Old November 13 2013, 06:43 AM   #30
ITCH
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Re: What next for Section 31? [SPOILERS]

rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
The Federation didn't follow up the Dominion War by finishing the job that Jem'Hadar had started on the Cardassians, but rather extended an extensive decade-long aid program.


And just in case Cardassia decide to turn against the Federation, guess who has the location and schematic of every water plant, communication network and industrial replicator the Federation provided or help to build in the last ten years? Assuming they don’t already all come with a nice hidden self destruct app that run in cardassian OP, IOS, and Microsoft....
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