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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Rate A Ceremony of Losses.
Outstanding 65 60.75%
Above Average 35 32.71%
Average 6 5.61%
Below Average 1 0.93%
Poor 0 0%
Voters: 107. You may not vote on this poll

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Old November 7 2013, 10:58 PM   #196
David Mack
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Re: TF: A Ceremony of Losses by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

DEWLine wrote: View Post
Surely arrangements can be made for the trade collection of The Fall...?

*hopeful smile*
I know of no plans for such a collection, though if one is planned, I will petition to add a scene or two to A Ceremony of Losses....
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Old November 7 2013, 11:44 PM   #197
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Re: TF: A Ceremony of Losses by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Fair enough.
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Old November 8 2013, 12:53 AM   #198
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Re: TF: A Ceremony of Losses by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

David Mack wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
The Progressive leader, Kellessar zh'Tarash. Not only did she probably make it a requirement in the coalition agreement for the new Andorian government to apply for re-admission or else the Progressives would pull out of the coalition...

... but she probably personally sat down any coalition-aligned MPs who were skeptical about rejoining to convince them.

And she probably said several things: She probably talked to them about how the Federation is as much Andor's baby as it is Earth's; she probably talked to them about Federation ideals and principles; she probably talked to them about how Ishan's orders were violations of Federation ideals -- and about how so many Federation citizens decided to rebel against Ishan because he was violating those ideals, from Bashir to the geneticists to the entire crew of the Aventine; she probably talked about how Ishan's orders were probably illegal under Federation law; and she probably sealed the deal by saying:

"Support us re-joining the Federation, and I will run for President. I'll make sure that rat-bastard Ishan isn't running the Palais if we're back in the club."

That would be my inference if I were an Andorian or Federation political pundit on FNS, anyway.
Damn … you're right. In retrospect, I should have written that scene. In fact, I now devoutly wish that I had.
Thank you, that's very nice of you to say! But for whatever it's worth -- the biggest reason I thought of that was because of how vividly you drew zh'Tarash's character, with its mix of genuine idealism personal ambition tinged with an awareness of herself as a sexual minority and a sense of political pragmatism, even though she only appeared in a handful of scenes.
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Old November 8 2013, 01:05 AM   #199
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Re: TF: A Ceremony of Losses by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Just got the book, it was great.

Love that the andorian repro crisis is finally over. The one year later scene actually made me laugh, as I took it to be "look, this solution actually worked and this is concluded, finito, donesville".

Bashir's moral journey was superb. I was a bit worried where things were headed after zero sum game, but he has his physician's black & white back.

Also, Ishan is such a cartoon bad guy, I love it
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Old November 8 2013, 05:56 PM   #200
Paris
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Re: TF: A Ceremony of Losses by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Got the book the other day and finished it in just two sittings! Mr.Mack did a superb job once again. That was the seventh Mack book i've read this year, and it may have actually been the best. I've enjoyed this entire crossover! Can't wait for part 4. Here's hoping that Akaar get's this crazy Ishan under some sort of control! Is it just me, or does anyone else feel like Akaar would make a great president ?
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Old November 8 2013, 09:05 PM   #201
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Re: TF: A Ceremony of Losses by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Paris wrote: View Post
Is it just me, or does anyone else feel like Akaar would make a great president ?
That idea is not bad.

If anyone is interested, "unverzagt" is a German word translating as 'dauntless'.

Can we assume that the Ilmarriven and the Tuonetar belong to the Shran-class from TTN: Fallen Gods?
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Old November 9 2013, 04:42 PM   #202
TheUsualSuspect
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Re: TF: A Ceremony of Losses by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I really liked this one and voted outstanding. I thought it was a very good resolution of the long-simmering story about the Andorian reproduction crisis, which also advanced the larger story of The Fall.

Like others have noted, at times, Ishan seems a little bit cartoonish in his interactions, but I think that is consistent with the way he's been portrayed in both this novel and The Crimson Shadow. He seems to me like a "small-time" political figure (in comparison with being part of the highest echelons of interstellar government) who is probably better at campaigning and cutting deals with people who can support him and help him advance than he is at actual administration and governing. He's probably in over his head as president, but his own arrogance and eagerness for power have so far blinded him to that.

I also really like that Bashir gets to be a heroic doctor here, and sticks to his principles even at great cost. I'm glad his story will continue in Disavowed.

In the end, I'm now anxiously waiting for The Poisoned Chalice to see where all this is going next!
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Old November 10 2013, 06:15 PM   #203
Reanok
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Re: TF: A Ceremony of Losses by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I bought this book the other day and have read 10 chapters so far. I really like Julian Bashir wanting to help the Andorians and Ezri and her crew don't like their orders either and want to help the Adorians.The President pro tem is a really a power hungry politician who can't be trusted I hope he won't be elected Federation President.I can't wait to to see how this story unfolds in this book.I'm looking forward to seeing how this story with Section 31 is continued in Disavowed.
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Old November 11 2013, 03:31 AM   #204
BrentMc
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Re: TF: A Ceremony of Losses by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

(SPOILER ALERT)
I really enjoyed this book. I loved the references like the Lost Numbers and the gung ho. I really liked how there was suspense and problems everywhere. The interim president and his going around Akkar, The ships that followed his orders vs. The Aventine and Bashir on the freighter. It was a real edge-of-your-seat page turner. It was a really close call between the Andorians being cured or not. I love Andorians, so I am happy they have the cure and look forward to future stories about Andorians. I also liked the Dr. Pulaski appearance.

I want to know what happens to Bashir, but I really want to know about Ezri. I am among the people who like Ezri as Captain of the Aventine. Is there a chance that Akkar will support her actions, and she may retain her Captaincy?

BTW has anyone else wondered if the Name Andorian comes from and / or, as in I would like some cake and / or some ice cream?
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Old November 11 2013, 01:43 PM   #205
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Re: TF: A Ceremony of Losses by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Very enjoyable book. I loved the character arc that Bashir goes through and I look forward to what he does next (because he's obviously not going to rot away in an asteroid prison). I find the convience of finding the cure and the resolution of the Andor crisis (and their readmission) a bit too easy, although I have to say several posters have made good arguments that have convinced me how well it does work (but either way, the cure is not a deus ex machina).

Like Sci, I couldn't help but think of recent political events such as Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden. I might be alone on this, but Ishan's hawkish agendas reminded me of the recent actions of the Tea Party and I had a terrible time trying not to picture Ishan as Ted Cruz, even though I know they're two very different people.

On a different note, I loved the LOST and Pinky and the Brain references, and while I'm sure it wasn't intended, but Emerson Harris reminded me of Wash from Firefly.

I'm beginning to notice a trend with The Fall series. Each novel has featured a major character going through life changing experiences.

Revelation and Dust: Bacco assassination, Kira's wormhole experience (although this really the third time Kira has gone through an experience similar to this before)

The Crimson Shadow: Garak runs for Castellan (and presumably wins).

A Ceremony of Losses: Bashir destroys his career to save the Andor species, Ezri has potentially has done the same to a lesser degree (although we don't know the exact fallout of her actions yet).

Likewise, each book has focused on a major world (Bajor, Cardassia, Andor) and will continue so with Earth in The Poisoned Chalice. I guess Peaceable Kingdoms will tie all of them together?

Scout101 wrote: View Post
On a side note: was this book physically more flimsy than the previous few (Crimson Shadow, for example)? Seems this comes up on occasion, then they go back to normal, and then another 'cheap' one seems to pop up. Wondering if it was the run I got, or if that was the same for everyone. And what drives that end result...
This post was buried deep in the aforementioned "deus ex machina" debate, but I wanted to bring it back up. I noticed my copy was flimsy as well and I don't like it one bit. I really hope this isn't the new printing mode.
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Old November 11 2013, 02:47 PM   #206
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Re: TF: A Ceremony of Losses by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Emh wrote: View Post
Very enjoyable book. I loved the character arc that Bashir goes through and I look forward to what he does next (because he's obviously not going to rot away in an asteroid prison). I find the convience of finding the cure and the resolution of the Andor crisis (and their readmission) a bit too easy, although I have to say several posters have made good arguments that have convinced me how well it does work (but either way, the cure is not a deus ex machina).
I don't get the too easy part on the cure. We found out about the crisis in november 2376, and it's resolved in September 2385. And the real world length of time for resolution is nearly as long (Feburary 2005 to October 2013). The resolution is predicated on pre-existing knowledge built up in another multi-year series of books being harnessed by eminent doctors(wish that included mccoy, but I guess that would be too fangasmy), coupled with the work of andorians working flat out for the existance of the species and built upon previous work in another novel that failed but pointed the way forward.

That's anything but easy, and the huge length of time for a resolution has in fact been a bone of contention for me in the past. Readmission works because it's built on the same thing that took them out in the first place - the uproar of the people because of supressed info that could help them have a future.
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Old November 11 2013, 04:26 PM   #207
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Re: TF: A Ceremony of Losses by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Emh wrote: View Post
Like Sci, I couldn't help but think of recent political events such as Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden. I might be alone on this, but Ishan's hawkish agendas reminded me of the recent actions of the Tea Party and I had a terrible time trying not to picture Ishan as Ted Cruz, even though I know they're two very different people.


I had that exact same reaction, but I had it back when I read The Crimson Shadow back in late September. It was just as Senator Cruz started his faux-filibuster that led to the shutdown, as I was reading Ishan's scenes in Crimson Shadow, I thought to myself:

"New legislator who comes out of nowhere, makes major waves before anyone really gets to know who he is, and then ascends to the highest levels of power on the basis of his back-room politicking in the midst of a constitutional crisis?

"Holy crap, the new Federation President is Ted Cruz!"
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Old November 11 2013, 07:04 PM   #208
trash80
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Re: TF: A Ceremony of Losses by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Very good book, the later "chase" scenes were very exciting. I didn't like the overly cynical politics though, i know it was a means to an end for the story but it just didn't seem to fit in with Star Trek very well or seem that realistic.
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Old November 11 2013, 08:08 PM   #209
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Re: TF: A Ceremony of Losses by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

With regard to seeing enough of the horrors of politicians willing to do real, tangible harm to people for political or ideological gain, I can't help thinking of one of the few episodes of Taxi I can remember:
A Pac-Man arcade game was installed in the garage, and "Reverend Jim" Ignatowski (Christopher Lloyd) promptly became addicted to it. In the tag, he said,
I don't . . . know why . . . I play . . . this game. Throbbing noises . . . blinking lights . . . getting chased by monsters . . . I get enough of that in real life.
At any rate, it was a draining read, but it sure started moving fast near the end.
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Old November 11 2013, 10:13 PM   #210
Emh
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Re: TF: A Ceremony of Losses by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Sci wrote: View Post
Emh wrote: View Post
Like Sci, I couldn't help but think of recent political events such as Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden. I might be alone on this, but Ishan's hawkish agendas reminded me of the recent actions of the Tea Party and I had a terrible time trying not to picture Ishan as Ted Cruz, even though I know they're two very different people.


I had that exact same reaction, but I had it back when I read The Crimson Shadow back in late September. It was just as Senator Cruz started his faux-filibuster that led to the shutdown, as I was reading Ishan's scenes in Crimson Shadow, I thought to myself:

"New legislator who comes out of nowhere, makes major waves before anyone really gets to know who he is, and then ascends to the highest levels of power on the basis of his back-room politicking in the midst of a constitutional crisis?

"Holy crap, the new Federation President is Ted Cruz!"
The similarities between the two are especially remarkable considering The Fall was written months before the rise of Ted Cruz. I guess there's been enough politicians like him over the years that it's not so surprising (someone upthread remarked the similarities to Nixon).
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