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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old November 10 2013, 09:43 PM   #61
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Re: cool that there are so many TMP threads

Christopher wrote: View Post
^Again, I don't see your point. I have already agreed, more than once, that the DE is not exactly what a completed 1979 version of TMP would have been. That is so obvious that it doesn't even need to be pointed out. What I have said is that it's closer than the other available versions, that it corrects many of their flaws, and that it did have the involvement of Robert Wise, even if it was 2001 Robert Wise rather than 1979 Robert Wise. Obviously, making the film exactly the way Wise wanted it in '79 is impossible, so that's a ridiculous standard to judge it by. But if you're going to make an updated edit of a Robert Wise film 22 years after the fact, there's nobody I'd trust more with that process than Robert Wise, who was not only the guy who directed the film, but the guy who edited Citizen Kane and thus knew a lot more about editing than anyone here. If he was okay with the DE, then who am I to argue? If Wise-'01 decided to approve changes from Wise-'79's original plan, I'm going to take that as the result of his greater experience and time to reconsider, and I'm not going to tell him he's wrong about his own movie.
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Old November 10 2013, 10:02 PM   #62
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Re: cool that there are so many TMP threads

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
I don't "hate" the BoP...it's fine for the type of small attack vessel that it was presented as in TSFS...but good lord, did it become the most overused ship design in Trek. It was when they started using it on TNG as a larger-scale variant that it lost its original role in the scheme of things and became an inferior D7 replacement.
The Vorcha Class should have been introduced sooner, and then perhaps used more consistenty. It always struck me as being a much closer 'successor' ship to the classic D7, in both practicality and overall asthetics. Unlike the B-O-P, it was immediately and obviously a Klingon ship.

Realistically Kruge's ship really ought to have been written off as being a stolen Romulan ship (as it had been in an earlier draft). But the problem is TSFS fumbles the play by having Kirk and Sulu discuss it as "a Klingon Bird-of-Prey", stating emphatically that it is indeed a Klingon ship, despite it evidently having much more in common with the Romulan vessels on TOS, IMO. And then TFF commits a further foul by then showing other Klingons using the same ships as part of a routine duty.

IIRC The Next Generation tended to favor the use of stock footage of the Klingon ships from The Motion Picture in its earlier seasons, largely ignoring this so called Bird-of-Prey altogether (it wasn't until the likes of "Sins Of The Father" that we saw 24th century Klingons using B-O-P variants).
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Old November 10 2013, 10:05 PM   #63
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Re: cool that there are so many TMP threads

I dunno, I never liked TNG's Klingon ships either. They were so blocky and cluttered, with none of the elegance of the D-7. Matt Jefferies had his own special style.
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Old November 10 2013, 10:09 PM   #64
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Re: cool that there are so many TMP threads

I do agree Christopher, but it's more the general lines of the ship I was talking about. The Vorcha is clearly 'inspired' by the original D7 in all the important ways that TSFS's Bird-Of-Prey clearly wasn't.
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Old November 10 2013, 10:09 PM   #65
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Re: cool that there are so many TMP threads

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I dunno, I never liked TNG's Klingon ships either. They were so blocky and cluttered, with none of the elegance of the D-7. Matt Jefferies had his own special style.
I've also observed that the D-7 and K't'inga-class seemed much more Klingon in their use. Rather than resorting to cloaking technology- which fits Romulans more than it does Klingons- these ships are usually seen moving directly toward whatever they're attacking. My first memory of any Klingon ship is the three battle cruisers seen at the start of TMP.

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Old November 10 2013, 10:11 PM   #66
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Re: cool that there are so many TMP threads

I'm remain skeptical that Wise's involvement was as much as the DE makers claim. The fact that his commentary track and press appearances are obviously scripted does not give me confidence that he was driving that particular bus. Some people disagree, and they're welcome to their informed opinion.

I lay most of the blame for the DE's failings at Sharpline's doorstep for not having done their homework (they really didn't) and for engaging in pointless revisionism and fan-wank that does a disservice to the original artists who worked on the film.
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Old November 10 2013, 10:33 PM   #67
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Re: cool that there are so many TMP threads

Khan 2.0 wrote: View Post
So in a way SW was the anomaly as in the 70s the norm for SF flicks then was the thoughtful, intellectual dystopian stuff.
Yes--George Lucas wanted retro sci-fi adventure through the myth strainer of Lord of the Rings, which was the polar opposite of the films Christopher mentioned, along with other productions such as Logan's Run or The Island of Dr. Moreau (curiously, both starring Michael York). Whether the message was strong, or overshadowed by spectacle, messages in sci-fi was the only route for nearly every major film of the decade. It was a miracle TMP and Alien managed to stay in this vein in the wake of Star Wars.


Star Trek had already advanced to that road for its Phase 2 before SW popped up.

Then after SW brought back the feel good action SF people were wondering why Star Trek TMP wasn’t like that as that’s what they remembered from the tv show. So in a way Star Trek got there late to its own party
Phase II had been in development, but SW shifted the aim toward the big screen, so at any time, the PTB could have forced all involved to get the SW feel, instead of TMP's philosophical exploration. That's why I believe it was a miracle TMP--flawed as it is--held on to its own identity instead of being....Battle Beyond the Stars or Battlestar Galactica.
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Old November 10 2013, 10:53 PM   #68
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Re: cool that there are so many TMP threads

Christopher wrote: View Post
JT Perfecthair wrote: View Post
Has any film since been referred to as a "motion picture" as part of its title? That seems odd that they felt the need to point that out, by 1979 nobody really needed to be told that it was a talkie or in color either.
The point was, "Hey, this TV series is now a movie!" As stated, Superman: The Movie was titled along the same lines, as was The Muppet Movie, Transformers: The Movie, Twilight Zone: The Movie, etc. It's like calling a musical play adaptation of a work X: The Musical, or a cartoon version X: The Animated Series. It's to call attention to the fact that it's in a different medium than people are used to seeing it in, and to help distinguish it in advertising and coverage so that people will know which version you're discussing. It's different now that there are a dozen Trek movies and it's one of the longest-running movie franchises of all time; but back then, Star Trek had never been a motion picture before, so that was something worth calling attention to.
"The Motion Picture" sounds stilted, but I can see why they'd want ST in the title and something else to distinguish from the show. But it was aiming more for cinema than "the movies," hence the semi-stilted choice.

I think Superman would be a stronger titled just "Superman." There was no recent tv show to distinguish it from and "the Movie" seems anti-climactic, both in meaning and rhythmically. "Superman": wham! a great word, sound-wise. Supermanthemovie kinda peters out. And with all the promotional work, everybody knew it was a movie.

Why in the name of God am I writing about the cadence of the title of a 1978 movie? Oy. Off to do something real. Be well, all.
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Old November 10 2013, 11:18 PM   #69
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Re: cool that there are so many TMP threads

Actually, the on-screen title of the 1978 film is simply "Superman". Short and sweet!
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Old November 11 2013, 12:18 AM   #70
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Re: cool that there are so many TMP threads

plynch wrote: View Post
"The Motion Picture" sounds stilted, but I can see why they'd want ST in the title and something else to distinguish from the show. But it was aiming more for cinema than "the movies," hence the semi-stilted choice.
I think it was still in more common use back then, since there were more people around who'd grown up in the early days of film when "motion picture" was used more often than the shorthand "movie." It was considered a classier term, while "movie" was seen more as slang. At least, that was my impression.


I think Superman would be a stronger titled just "Superman." There was no recent tv show to distinguish it from and "the Movie" seems anti-climactic, both in meaning and rhythmically. "Superman": wham! a great word, sound-wise. Supermanthemovie kinda peters out. And with all the promotional work, everybody knew it was a movie.
Actually there was a current TV show featuring Superman, namely Superfriends. Plus the George Reeves The Adventures of Superman was in pretty constant syndication back then. And of course more people read comic books back then because the distribution monopoly hadn't happened yet and thus comics were still widely sold in drugstores and department stores rather than just in specialty shops where only committed comics fans would ever know they existed. So Superman was a regular media presence in several forms; it simply isn't true that the movie was filling some long-standing void.

And really, I don't understand the "everybody knew it was a movie" argument. I mean, people know Batman: The Animated Series was an animated series, but I've never heard anyone object to the title. And there are plenty of other TV shows based on movies called The Series. Such descriptors are useful, because it's not just about "informing" people of what something is, it's about distinguishing different branches of a franchise for general and long-term reference. Certainly it's useful in retrospect to talk about Superman: The Movie or RoboCop: The Series or the like so that it's instantly clear what subset of the franchise I'm referring to. It's certainly handier than talking about "Star Trek" and having to add words to specify whether I'm referring to the original series or the 2009 movie. This kind of subtitle is useful and practical and I don't understand the objections.

Anyway, I grew up hearing it called Superman: The Movie, so the modern tendency to refer to it as just Superman sounds weird to me. Different people perceive things differently.
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Old November 11 2013, 12:22 AM   #71
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Re: cool that there are so many TMP threads

I couldn't stay away, SuperTrekFriends.

So why do I think it is called "Superman: The Movie"? Posters? Novel?

Is STTMP really "Star Trek" on-screen?!
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Old November 11 2013, 12:58 AM   #72
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Re: cool that there are so many TMP threads

plynch wrote: View Post
So why do I think it is called "Superman: The Movie"? Posters? Novel?
Yes, most of the posters, ads, and promotions did call it that, and there was a standard logo with that title: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-gbTz7r-mjS...vie%2Blogo.jpg

It didn't have a novelization per se; rather, its tie-in was an original novel based on the comics continuity, Superman: Last Son of Krypton by Elliot S! Maggin, aka The Best Superman Novel Ever Written in the History of Ever. (The text of which used to be available online, but apparently the site that hosted it was having major security issues and is now under reconstruction.) But the novel does use the Superman: The Movie logo on the cover to promote the bonus photo section inside, and there's an ad on the back page promoting the "Superman: The Movie soundtrack." Although on the page before it there's an ad for various nonfiction tie-ins which refer to it as "the SUPERMAN movie" or just "SUPERMAN."


Is STTMP really "Star Trek" on-screen?!
Nope, it uses a solid-white version of the familiar Star Trek: The Motion Picture logo.

However, Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan was originally titled just Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan onscreen.
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Old November 11 2013, 01:26 AM   #73
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Re: cool that there are so many TMP threads

I don't know if this was mentioned at all, as yet, but I'll still throw this in, anyway. During the Sixties, Seventies and early Eighties, studios were still promoting many of their pictures using poster art that was actually drawn and painted. Bob Peak, whom I am very inspired by, as an artist, had done more than a number of those posters. These would include SUPERMAN: The Movie, STAR TREK: The Motion Picture, STAR TREKs II, III, IV and V. When TUC came together, unfortunately, Bob Peak had expired. But he'd been entrusted to do many great movies posters for alot of years. I think he was wonderfully talented and that prism effect poster for TMP was just as memorable as the soundtrack is ...
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Old November 11 2013, 01:36 AM   #74
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Re: cool that there are so many TMP threads

Lance wrote: View Post
The Vorcha Class should have been introduced sooner, and then perhaps used more consistenty. It always struck me as being a much closer 'successor' ship to the classic D7, in both practicality and overall asthetics.
Yes, I was happy to see a new, 24th-century Klingon vessel finally come along, after three seasons of TNG using century-old leftovers from the films.

The D-7 looked just fine on TNG, though. I assume that as they were using shots from TMP, there were reasons that they couldn't do original model work with it on the show.

And then TFF commits a further foul by then showing other Klingons using the same ships as part of a routine duty.
And by the time that film came out, they'd also shown it still in use in the 24th century (Season 2, "A Matter of Honor").
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Old November 11 2013, 01:39 AM   #75
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Re: cool that there are so many TMP threads

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
I don't know if this was mentioned at all, as yet, but I'll still throw this in, anyway. During the Sixties, Seventies and early Eighties, studios were still promoting many of their pictures using poster art that was actually drawn and painted. Bob Peak, whom I am very inspired by, as an artist, had done more than a number of those posters. These would include SUPERMAN: The Movie, STAR TREK: The Motion Picture, STAR TREKs II, III, IV and V. When TUC came together, unfortunately, Bob Peak had expired. But he'd been entrusted to do many great movies posters for alot of years. I think he was wonderfully talented and that prism effect poster for TMP was just as memorable as the soundtrack is ...
I do wish movie studios still did painted movie posters. I assume knocking together a twenty second photo montage in Photoshop/Paintshop Pro/whatever art package is cheaper than commissing an actual artist, but it just isn't nearly as asthetically pleasing IMO.
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