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Old November 10 2013, 10:36 AM   #91
beamMe
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Re: Khan #1 Review

RPJOB wrote: View Post
I found it odd that NuSPock had to be goaded by NuKirk into showing emotion over the destruction of Vulcan and the death of his mother and yet he totally lost it and went into a homicidal rage over the "death" of one person that he's known for about a year. Sort of puts the destruction of Vulcan into perspective,
No, it doesn't.

Most people wouldn't find it odd that someone would snap when events kept piling up on him or her.
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Old November 10 2013, 04:42 PM   #92
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Re: Khan #1 Review

RPJOB wrote: View Post
I found it odd that NuSPock had to be goaded by NuKirk into showing emotion over the destruction of Vulcan and the death of his mother and yet he totally lost it and went into a homicidal rage over the "death" of one person that he's known for about a year. Sort of puts the destruction of Vulcan into perspective, right up there with the Death Star blowing up Alderaan in Star Wars. Obi Wan feels a disturbance in the force and then it's never mentioned again.
Spock's entire story arc in ID stems from his reaction to Vulcan's destruction.
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Old November 10 2013, 04:43 PM   #93
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Re: Khan #1 Review

How is it odd for a character to evolve from one story to the next? That's what they're supposed to do.
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Old November 10 2013, 05:56 PM   #94
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Re: Khan #1 Review

It was a matter of degree that I had a problem with. Spock's entire planet was destroyed and he personally witnessed his mother "falling" out of the transporter beam. This is the younger, more emotional Spock and yet he barely reacts until Kirk makes some taunting remarks. He stops when Sarek tells him to with nobody else thinking that Kirk was in enough danger of being beaten to death that they felt they had to step in and help.

One year later, we've got someone that Spock still doesn't consider a friend until the fateful moment when he dies. Suddenly, he's screaming, running, jumping and chasing Khan across a city single handedly. Uhura's the only one who can stop him. And yet all his rage is because of the death of one person. Never mind the tens or hundres of thousands buried under the Vengeance. "You killed my friend that I just realized I had".

One person is more important that thousands or millions or billions. That's what gets my attention. It's got to be personal before I give a damn.

That's why I think it's odd. Why should I care about all the deaths on Vulcan or San Francisco when the characters don't? Just like Alderaan was simply to show what a threat the Death Star is and what a bunch of bad asses the Empire are.

If it worked for you, that's fine. I just found it rather callous that one person (or two counting Amanda) gets a much, much greater sense of outrage that billions. What would Spock do if Kirk and/or Amanda hadn't been among the dead? Would he be so much more willing to let Nero live or to not try to beat Khan to death?

Even Spock's decision to return to Starfleet at the end of the first movies seems selfish. He was ready to do his part to save his species from extinction but changed his mind when his older self told him about his budding bromance. "Screw those guys, I'm going to go hang with my buds". An yet, even after a year has passed Spock doesn't seem any closer to Kirk, at least not until Kirk "dies". It's only the very personal losses that seem to get any sort of reaction from Spock. All the rest don't seem to matter and, to me, that makes him a rather selfish character. More "The needs of the one" as opposed to "The needs of the many".
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Old November 10 2013, 08:58 PM   #95
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Re: Khan #1 Review

Many people, when confronted with a severe trauma, have a barely perceptible reaction until jolted into one later on. Shock gives way to realization that the trauma was real and has permanent repercussions. Spock's reactions are not at all inconsistent with this.
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Old November 10 2013, 10:28 PM   #96
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Re: Khan #1 Review

I had just assumed he never fully recovered from the events of the first movie, so he was a lot quicker to lose it.
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Old November 10 2013, 11:29 PM   #97
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Re: Khan #1 Review

If he were not suited for duty, why was he back on the ship in the first place? He's already abandoned his executive officer on an icy planet and then attempted to kill him when he found a way back on board. If he's so close to the edge he'd have no place being on the ship in the first place. It's not like he was needed on the ship. Kirk was all ready to depart when Spock showed up and offered his services. I wonder who the first officer was that he pushed aside was?
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Old November 10 2013, 11:56 PM   #98
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Re: Khan #1 Review

JD wrote: View Post
I had just assumed he never fully recovered from the events of the first movie, so he was a lot quicker to lose it.
Yes -- IIRC, it was established in the movie (and in the comics leading up to it) that Spock was in denial, not really dealing with the trauma he'd gone through and thus unable to move past it.
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Old November 11 2013, 03:28 AM   #99
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Re: Khan #1 Review

RPJOB wrote: View Post
One person is more important that thousands or millions or billions. That's what gets my attention. It's got to be personal before I give a damn.

That's why I think it's odd. Why should I care about all the deaths on Vulcan or San Francisco when the characters don't? Just like Alderaan was simply to show what a threat the Death Star is and what a bunch of bad asses the Empire are.

If it worked for you, that's fine. I just found it rather callous that one person (or two counting Amanda) gets a much, much greater sense of outrage that billions. What would Spock do if Kirk and/or Amanda hadn't been among the dead? Would he be so much more willing to let Nero live or to not try to beat Khan to death?
It's different levels of outrage - the death of someone close to you will affect you more than the deaths of billions of people you don't know, precisely because it is personal.
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Old November 11 2013, 03:54 AM   #100
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Re: Khan #1 Review

It's ridiculous to think that Spock didn't care about the destruction of Vulcan just because he didn't openly display his grief. What people -- especially Vulcans -- show on the surface is not a reliable indicator of what's going on inside them. The difference isn't that Spock cared more about Kirk's death than those of his whole species; the difference is that suppressing his grief for a year had brought him to a breaking point and Kirk's death was the last straw.
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Old November 11 2013, 09:50 PM   #101
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Re: Khan #1 Review

RPJOB wrote: View Post
Obi Wan feels a disturbance in the force and then it's never mentioned again.
Spock sensed a shipload of Vulcans dying in TOS and the approach of V'ger in TMP. It ruined his Kolinahr graduation ceremony.

And this "power" is not really mentioned again, each time, until the next script that requires him to use it.
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Old November 11 2013, 11:43 PM   #102
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Re: Khan #1 Review

As if a million Star Wars memes cried in horror at being dragged into Star Trek...and were silenced.
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Old November 12 2013, 02:33 AM   #103
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Re: Khan #1 Review

I'm not saying he didn't care about Vulcans destruction. It's the only time he loses control is when Kirk's involved, first when Kirk staged his mutiny by illegally boarding the ship with Scotty and the second time when he "died". It's as if the only person that can get a rise out of Spock is Kirk.

And, if Spock was co compromised by the destruction of Vulcan and the death of his family, why is he even on active duty? He tried to kill Kirk after all. Did nobody mention this to someone at headquarters? Great way to show your loyalty to your friend and comrade, let him work in a high pressure job while he's got serious mental health issues that basically lead him to find a logical way to commit suicide. But at least his friends didn't rat him out to Starfleet Medical.

It just didn't work for me. Your mileage may vary.
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Old November 12 2013, 02:47 AM   #104
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Re: Khan #1 Review

RPJOB wrote: View Post
I'm not saying he didn't care about Vulcans destruction. It's the only time he loses control is when Kirk's involved, first when Kirk staged his mutiny by illegally boarding the ship with Scotty and the second time when he "died". It's as if the only person that can get a rise out of Spock is Kirk.
And little kids calling him names.

It's funny that at the end of STD he is just the very same character as in the beginning of ST09.
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Old November 12 2013, 03:54 AM   #105
Avro Arrow
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Re: Khan #1 Review

RPJOB wrote: View Post
It's as if the only person that can get a rise out of Spock is Kirk.
... says every Star Trek slash ever written.

And, if Spock was co compromised by the destruction of Vulcan and the death of his family, why is he even on active duty? He tried to kill Kirk after all. Did nobody mention this to someone at headquarters?
To be fair, the rules around this seem a little murky. Spock thought he had killed Kirk in Amok Time, and he felt the need to relinquish command and turn himself in on his own volition. Presumably no one would have arrested him or forced him to step down otherwise?

Great way to show your loyalty to your friend and comrade, let him work in a high pressure job while he's got serious mental health issues that basically lead him to find a logical way to commit suicide. But at least his friends didn't rat him out to Starfleet Medical.
C'mon, all those other crazy and corrupt captains and admirals don't just happen... something's gotta make them all crack. This is probably just Starfleet's Standard Operating Procedure!
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