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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old November 9 2013, 02:13 AM   #106
Captrek
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

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Old November 9 2013, 02:17 AM   #107
Nerys Myk
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness whnand the 4th wall

BigJake wrote: View Post
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The line about Vulcans lying is from The Enterprise Incident.

SPOCK: It is no myth.
It's a key element in the Romulans buying into the ruse Kirk and Spock have set up.
Right. In which case cf. earlier comment in re: "Vulcans never speculate" and "Vulcans never bluff."

Spock quite obviously prefers to deal with fact, but does mess with people whenever it is logical to do so. "It is no myth... [suckers]." That's interesting but it doesn't really qualify as a breach in emotional reserve, which I generally take to be far and away the bigger deal in terms of Vulcan makeup.
But its not a throw away line as you presumed but as I said a key element. Lying and deception are not as foreign to Vulcans as some fan think. While they might do so for "logical" reasons, they are also self serving and for "king and country".
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Old November 9 2013, 02:21 AM   #108
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

Nerys Myk wrote:
But its not a throw away line as you presumed but as I said a key element.
Key element to the story, but it doesn't seem meant to establish the inability to lie as a second pillar of Vulcan-ness and I've certainly never been one of the fans who thought lying and deception were foreign to Vulcans. The emotional reserve criterion is the only real "universal" such as it is that I know of.
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Old November 9 2013, 02:39 AM   #109
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

BigJake wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote:
But its not a throw away line as you presumed but as I said a key element.
Key element to the story, but it doesn't seem meant to establish the inability to lie as a second pillar of Vulcan-ness and I've certainly never been one of the fans who thought lying and deception were foreign to Vulcans. The emotional reserve criterion is the only real "universal" such as it is that I know of.
The Two Commandments are more of fannish misconception than pillars of Vulcan Society. That writers like to play with these show why they're misconceptions. Yes, Vulcans are emotionally reserved, but it's not an unbreakable reserve. As most Spock-centric episodes show.

The Vulcan Inquisition wrote:
Our three weapons are emotional reserve, pedantry, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to logic.... Our four...no... amongst our weapons.... amongst our weaponry...are such elements as emotional reserve, pedantry.... I'll come in again.
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Old November 9 2013, 02:53 AM   #110
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

BigJake wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote:
But its not a throw away line as you presumed but as I said a key element.
Key element to the story, but it doesn't seem meant to establish the inability to lie as a second pillar of Vulcan-ness and I've certainly never been one of the fans who thought lying and deception were foreign to Vulcans. The emotional reserve criterion is the only real "universal" such as it is that I know of.
We can't reliably infer "universals" from what we get in canon. Before ENT, we met few Vulcans: Spock, Sarek, Tuvok, and occasional guests with small roles. Very small sample.

From ENT I got the impression that Vulcans are logical in the same way Klingons are honorable: it's a cultural value and everybody invokes the word a lot, but few truly understand it and excel in its application. Spock embodies Vulcan values the way Worf embodies Klingon values, and neither one is typical of the general population of their worlds.
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Old November 9 2013, 02:58 AM   #111
Nerys Myk
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

Captrek wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote:
But its not a throw away line as you presumed but as I said a key element.
Key element to the story, but it doesn't seem meant to establish the inability to lie as a second pillar of Vulcan-ness and I've certainly never been one of the fans who thought lying and deception were foreign to Vulcans. The emotional reserve criterion is the only real "universal" such as it is that I know of.
We can't reliably infer "universals" from what we get in canon. Before ENT, we met few Vulcans: Spock, Sarek, Tuvok, and occasional guests with small roles. Very small sample.

From ENT I got the impression that Vulcans are logical in the same way Klingons are honorable: it's a cultural value and everybody invokes the word a lot, but few truly understand it and excel in its application. Spock embodies Vulcan values the way Worf embodies Klingon values, and neither one is typical of the general population of their worlds.
Both tend to over emphasize their "alieness" when around humans.
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Old November 9 2013, 03:08 AM   #112
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
The Vulcan Inquisition wrote:
Our three weapons are emotional reserve, pedantry, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to logic.... Our four...no... amongst our weapons.... amongst our weaponry...are such elements as emotional reserve, pedantry.... I'll come in again.
TAKE TWO: Our chief weapon is emotional reserve. That's all, just reserve. Yes, alright, reserve and pedantry... shut up!
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Old November 9 2013, 04:40 AM   #113
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

Maurice wrote: View Post
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Accordingly, I've read that this sort of thing is referred to as leaning on the fourth wall, not breaking it.
Having an actor's eyeline play just off to one side of the lens in a tight closeup is SOP for cinematography. The closer to actor's eyeline to the lens if commonly called "intimacy". There's nothing at all unusual about the shot of Bones here for film of almost any period, period.
I was referring to what King Daniel Into Darkness was talking about, which was not just the eyeline but the whole scene, including, if not most especially, the dialog. McCoy finally got the last word when? At the end of an episode?!? That McCoy is looking off at whatever he's focusing on, that probably doesn't even really exist in-universe, is, relative to the dialog involved, just the cherry on top.

It's the implied reference to the episodic structure that makes it leaning on the fourth wall, but since there's still "plausible deniability" as it were, in that, despite the implied reference, one could suppose that in-universe McCoy just means he's getting the last word in at all rather than at the end of an episode, this isn't breaking the wall.

edit - I have no question that you're right that McCoy is not looking directly at the viewer. The eyeline certainly seems to be an example of intimacy, as you say, but the added dimension suggested by the dialog would seem to me to suggest an intention by the director to tease the viewer with a dose of double meaning.
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Old November 9 2013, 04:50 AM   #114
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

Captrek wrote: View Post
OMG!!!

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Old November 9 2013, 05:16 AM   #115
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

I've still not seen the film.

For a true example of breaking the fourth wall, watch Ferris Bueller's Day Off and see how many times Ferris talks directly to the camera.

There are also notable examples in Airplane! and Top Secret!

Sometimes a scene intended to be serious can become so self aware, it can pull a viewer out of the moment. But that's not breaking the fourth wall. Based on comments here and elsewhere on the board, I suspect that's what's happening in Into Darkness, given its deliberate parallel to TWOK.
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Last edited by Melakon; November 9 2013 at 05:36 AM.
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Old November 9 2013, 04:59 PM   #116
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

It's more like flirting with the fourth wall. Sometimes it works if you do it right, especially with a humorous approach. With Khan's dramatic reveal? It's definitely comedic, unintentionally. I think they should have done it in the reverse. Spock asks Kirk to come check something out on the computer. Kirk looks shocked, they look at each other thinking the same thing. Cut to Kirk walking in the brig. The camera focuses on Khan, with Kirk in the background out of focus saying "I know who you are... Khan Noonien Singh", then we see Khan's face change. And just to let audiences know why it's a big deal, Bones doesn't know and asks why everyone is so shocked ("I'm a doctor, not a historian") and Kirk lays down the whole backrgound on Khan being the most notorious of all Earth's tyrants.
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Old November 9 2013, 05:31 PM   #117
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

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OMG!!!

Unfunny.
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Old November 9 2013, 05:41 PM   #118
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall


"Oh, come, come beamme, where's your sense of humor?"
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Old November 9 2013, 06:27 PM   #119
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

Right here, and working perfectly.
That video just isn't funny.

This one is:

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Old November 9 2013, 06:29 PM   #120
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Re: Star Trek Into Darkness and the 4th wall

beamMe wrote: View Post
Right here, and working perfectly.
That video just isn't funny.

This one is:

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