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Old November 8 2013, 08:46 PM   #241
CorporalClegg
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Re: Arrow - Season 2

LaxScrutiny wrote: View Post
So far we have seen that Sarah arrived on the boat, was brutalized, and then Ivo's intention was to use her in some kind of experiment.

When she next appears, Ollie is on the freighter, she is acting without affect, kicks him around and is holding a knife.

The connotation is that she is going to give him some more of those scars that everyone asks about.

It appears that in the time frame between the Queen's Gambit sinking and her kicking Ollie on the freighter, she has been tortured to the point of becoming a torturer.

This may not end up being true, but all points made so far lead to this conclusion, and there is no evidence of another situation.
This is still speculation based on a lot of assumption.

I could just as easily say the lack of emotion was her poker face. The knife is to free Ollie's hands. And the very next words out of her mouth are going to be, "Oliver, what are you doing here?" Chances of that are slim since the show rarely takes the obvious maudlin route, but it's still as good any other guess.

There's nothing wrong with speculating. The thing is, calling her an "evil assassin" is a big leap from suggesting she might be acting irrationally and instinctively under extreme physical and psychological duress.
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Old November 8 2013, 08:48 PM   #242
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Re: Arrow - Season 2

Well, if its mind control that would make sense (it would be kind of lame, but thats just my opinion), along with her pretending and a few other ways that may include her not being evil yet. Regardless, killing people for the LoA is definately evil, and the way she talked about it she was taking responsibility for what she did with the LoA, so she definately was doing very evil things by choice for several years. You can argue about wether she was under duress, but she seemed fine with it until that last assassination that she told Ollie about, so I'd guess she eventually works for the LoA by choice, atleast for awhile.
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Old November 8 2013, 09:05 PM   #243
sojourner
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Re: Arrow - Season 2

By choice or by conditioning?
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Old November 8 2013, 09:12 PM   #244
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Re: Arrow - Season 2

Comicbook Ivo is know for three things: Red Tornado, Amazo and finding the worst ways to be immortal.

TV Ivo wants to "save humanity" by experimenting on a bunch of third world refugees untill...

Figuring out Immortality seems more likely than cybernetics/robotics at this early point in his origin.
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Old November 8 2013, 10:00 PM   #245
Nerys Myk
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Re: Arrow - Season 2

I thought the Red Tornado was T.O. Morrow's creation.
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Old November 8 2013, 10:33 PM   #246
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Re: Arrow - Season 2

Yeah, probably, my DC Kung Fu is pretty shit.
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Old November 9 2013, 03:01 AM   #247
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Re: Arrow - Season 2

sojourner wrote: View Post
By choice or by conditioning?
Unless Ra's has been given mind control powers, choice. They haven't established mind control powers in the Arrow universe, and if they do I doubt it will be with Sarah. As for "conditioning", that is such a vague term I could see it being used for someone on arrow, but probably not Sarah. Its as unrealistic as telepathy, but so vague it basically covers most mind control not psychic based. Anything from chemicals to putting a dog collar on someone and shocking them when they don't do what you want can be "conditioning". I could maybe see it because of that, but Sarah has been pretty clear that she holds herself responsible for the killing, and I don't see that kind of control just going aay one day, not if it had been effective for so long. Plus, storywise its a cop out for Sarah, and would kind of screw up her character if she hadn't been in control of herself.
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Old November 9 2013, 03:15 AM   #248
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Re: Arrow - Season 2

Cults program people.

It's pretty easy.

Very little food which is always drugged, barely allow sleep, control movement, then set up a system of punishment and reward.

If you can't break someone after a couple weeks, it's too much effort, so you might as well bury them alive out back and go find another doe eyed kid at the bus terminal with no survival instincts.
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Old November 9 2013, 03:18 AM   #249
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Re: Arrow - Season 2

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
JD wrote: View Post
Right, because it's not like the (Black) Canary isn't a major part of the Green Arrow mythos, who deserves to play a major role in a show focused on Green Arrow.
Black Canary, Dinah Laurel Lance, the superhero trained by Wildcat and who took up her mothers superhero name, is a big part of the GA myhtos. Canary, Sarah Lance, the self admitted irresponsible woman who ends up becoming Black Canary as a result of becoming an assassin and spending several years murdering people? Not really part of the mythos.

Dinah in the Birds of Prey TV show was more like Black Canary than Sarah is. Sure, she had weird psychic powers, but she was a second generation hero, the daughter of that universe's original BC. She also was trying to be a hero and didn't kill people. While Arrow is a better TV show than BoP (although honestly I think that show is pretty good, even if it has some big flaws and is a bit to different for its own good), the Dinah from that version fits as BC more than sarah ever could. I need more than a name/somewhat similar powers to count someone as actually playing a pre exsisting character. Helena in Birds of Prey? Not playing any version of Huntress (Earth 2 or Post COIE) by any stretch of the imagination, even if she had the same name and shared some of the backstory with the E2 version. Ollie on Arrow? He feels like a version of Green Arrow. A kind of elseworlds version, sure, but I have no trouble believing that a GA like him could have exsisted back when DC comics was awesome. Sarah is like Helena, although honmestly with even less to connect her with any version of BC than Helena did with atleast one version of Huntress.

So, to me, sarah Lance is not a part of the Ga mythos. She's a somewhat interesting 2-3 episode subplot, but nothing to make a focus of the season, atleast not by herself. If it leads to an Ollie/Ra's confrontation, then I'd be more supportive. As it is, I'd be fine just seeing Sarah a few more times this season, but for the season in general moving on to different things.
THey said before the season started that The Canary would be a big part of Laurel's arc on the show, so at this point I'm assuming Laurel will find out and either due to Sarah's death or some other even Laurel will end up taking over The Canary identity. If we want to see that happen then that means we need to bring Sarah back.
You really can't expect everything in the show to be exactly like the comic books, and just because something is different than the comic books doesn't automatically make it bad. The show is based on the comic books, not a direct translation of them. If you want a direct translation there are motion comics for that.
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Old November 9 2013, 03:28 AM   #250
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Re: Arrow - Season 2

So, I can't think Sarah is only an average BC, because if I do it can only because of a bias against change from what the comic did? I liked Birds of Prey. A lot of that show was extremely far from the comics (even if Barbarta Gordon was done fairly close). I don't dislike Sarah or her role, I'd just prefer a more normal version of BC. Not because stuff has to match the comics, but because they haven't given me something that I think matches how interesting the comic version is. Of course, I do prefer the comics version a lot of the time, and I think the real BC would be more interesting that what we've got. But, they could make a different version that I could like a lot, they just haven't done it with Sarah's character. She's very, very ok. I think something more like the comics would be awesome, but I think they could have gone a different direction and still create an awesome character/storyline, they just haven't with the BC they have.
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Old November 9 2013, 03:34 AM   #251
Nerys Myk
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Re: Arrow - Season 2

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Yeah, probably, my DC Kung Fu is pretty shit.
Morrow and Ivo have been involved with creating a few androids over the years. Sometimes together. Tomorrow Woman has two daddies.
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Old November 9 2013, 08:47 AM   #252
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Re: Arrow - Season 2

Excellent episode, I love how much focus Sarah got.

And now she's going away for awhile in the present storyline? Meh... boo to that. At this point I'd much rather have her around than Laurel.
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Old November 14 2013, 03:04 AM   #253
Icemizer
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Re: Arrow - Season 2

So much going on this week its hard to know where to start. Waller, Argus, Deadshot, H.I.V.E., the island, Slade, Roy, oh my!
We even advanced the Barry Allen storyline and dealt with Felicities not so hidden love of Oliver.
Of course Ollies new dont kill policy doesnt apply to blowing up innocent Russian guards, which I thought was the only lame section in another very good episode.
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Old November 14 2013, 03:07 AM   #254
Sto-Vo-Kory
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Re: Arrow - Season 2

So all the business with Ivo and the Japanese "miracle" that increases strength -- are they seeding the Hourman stuff already?
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Old November 14 2013, 03:10 AM   #255
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Re: Arrow - Season 2

- So now Thea's boyfriend is working for the Arrow and Officer Lance still can't put it together.

- With the big three hogging all the action, it looks like they're having trouble giving the other characters something to do.

- Diggle slept with his ex, then he picked up his phone and typed in "H.I.V." That got my attention until I saw him finish and type H.I.V.E.
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