RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 138,201
Posts: 5,346,279
Members: 24,604
Currently online: 583
Newest member: LanCo96

TrekToday headlines

Funko Mini Spock
By: T'Bonz on Jul 23

IDW Publishing Comic Preview
By: T'Bonz on Jul 23

A Baby For Saldana
By: T'Bonz on Jul 23

Klingon Beer Arrives In The US
By: T'Bonz on Jul 22

Star Trek: Prelude To Axanar
By: T'Bonz on Jul 22

Abrams Announces Star Wars: Force For Change Sweepstakes
By: T'Bonz on Jul 22

New Funko Trek Figure
By: T'Bonz on Jul 21

Saldana As A Role Model
By: T'Bonz on Jul 21

San Diego Comic-Con Trek Fan Guide
By: T'Bonz on Jul 21

Cumberbatch As Turing
By: T'Bonz on Jul 21


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series

Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 6 2013, 07:44 PM   #16
Melakon
Vice Admiral
 
Melakon's Avatar
 
Location: Unmarked grave, Ekos
Re: TOS' incorrect world war I/II dead

ECON was the Eastern Coalition, which suggested it might have been made up of Asian countries. Braga indicated it was originally supposed to be China in an audio commentary, but changed to a less specific term for political correctness.
__________________
Curly: Moe, Larry, the cheese! Moe, Larry, the cheese! (Horses Collars, 1935)
Melakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 6 2013, 10:11 PM   #17
Nebusj
Rear Admiral
 
Nebusj's Avatar
 
View Nebusj's Twitter Profile
Re: TOS' incorrect world war I/II dead

BillJ wrote: View Post
Depending on how badly the Eugenics and third World War went, I can easily see some information being lost or distorted.

A Colonel Green or Khan Noonien Singh may have had records of certain events modified or even purged for some reason.
Um … are you kidding? Do you have any idea the scope of library and archive destruction that would be needed --- on top of the destruction of archeological artifacts, including population histories --- to make the number of World War I/II dead that poorly estimated? If one single solitary Barnes and Noble survives the war historians will have plenty of material to get a good estimate from. Heck, a single used bookstore surviving intact would be enough.

At some point it really gets to be easier to suppose that Spock remembered the numbers wrong when he was talking off the top of his head about a subject not one of his primary interests or responsibilities in order to make a rhetorical point in which only the order of magnitude makes the slightest difference.
Nebusj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 6 2013, 10:34 PM   #18
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: In the 23rd Century...
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: TOS' incorrect world war I/II dead

Nebusj wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Depending on how badly the Eugenics and third World War went, I can easily see some information being lost or distorted.

A Colonel Green or Khan Noonien Singh may have had records of certain events modified or even purged for some reason.
Um … are you kidding? Do you have any idea the scope of library and archive destruction that would be needed --- on top of the destruction of archeological artifacts, including population histories --- to make the number of World War I/II dead that poorly estimated? If one single solitary Barnes and Noble survives the war historians will have plenty of material to get a good estimate from. Heck, a single used bookstore surviving intact would be enough.

At some point it really gets to be easier to suppose that Spock remembered the numbers wrong when he was talking off the top of his head about a subject not one of his primary interests or responsibilities in order to make a rhetorical point in which only the order of magnitude makes the slightest difference.
With electronic media, by the time of World War III there may not have been a single Barnes and Noble still open.

__________________
"I had no idea you were so... formidable. " - Anan 7 to James T. Kirk, A Taste of Armageddon
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 7 2013, 03:10 AM   #19
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: TOS' incorrect world war I/II dead

Melakon wrote: View Post
ECON was the Eastern Coalition ...
Yes, Picard said as much.

... which suggested it might have been made up of Asian countries.
From what made it's way onto the screen, that is unclear, although possible.


T'Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 7 2013, 03:14 AM   #20
Nob Akimoto
Captain
 
Location: The People's Republic of Austin
View Nob Akimoto's Twitter Profile
Re: TOS' incorrect world war I/II dead

Given the irritatingly pedantic nature of TOS era Spock, I think we simply need to attribute this to writer error, and that he did, in fact, state more accurate numbers instead.
Nob Akimoto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 7 2013, 07:48 AM   #21
Mr. Laser Beam
Fleet Admiral
 
Mr. Laser Beam's Avatar
 
Location: The visitor's bullpen
View Mr. Laser Beam's Twitter Profile
Re: TOS' incorrect world war I/II dead

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Melakon wrote: View Post
ECON was the Eastern Coalition ...
Yes, Picard said as much.

... which suggested it might have been made up of Asian countries.
From what made it's way onto the screen, that is unclear, although possible.


Originally there wasn't supposed to even be an ECON. It was China. All references to the ECON were originally China. They must not have wanted to piss off the Chinese government or fans, so they changed it at the last minute. (Source: ST:FC commentary track)

And given what the ECON looked like in "Encounter at Farpoint", that's not hard to believe.
__________________
In labor news: Longshoremen walked off the piers today. Rescue operations are continuing.
Mr. Laser Beam is online now   Reply With Quote
Old November 8 2013, 06:15 AM   #22
Warped9
Admiral
 
Warped9's Avatar
 
Location: Brockville, Ontario, Canada
Re: TOS' incorrect world war I/II dead

Or that TOS is an alternate history and not the same as ours.

Firstly, is there a Star Trek television series in TOS' 20th century?
__________________
STAR TREK: 1964-1991, 2013-?
Warped9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 8 2013, 06:25 AM   #23
Melakon
Vice Admiral
 
Melakon's Avatar
 
Location: Unmarked grave, Ekos
Re: TOS' incorrect world war I/II dead

If there is, then Roberta Lincoln should have been watching it. Or Uhura should have picked it up along with those radio transmissions in "Tomorrow is Yesterday".
__________________
Curly: Moe, Larry, the cheese! Moe, Larry, the cheese! (Horses Collars, 1935)
Melakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 8 2013, 07:19 AM   #24
Avro Arrow
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
Re: TOS' incorrect world war I/II dead

Warped9 wrote: View Post
Or that TOS is an alternate history and not the same as ours.

Firstly, is there a Star Trek television series in TOS' 20th century?
Spock: It appears to be a giant amoeba, sir.

Kirk: Mr. Scott, rig up the blu-ray player. Let's see how we get out of this one!
Avro Arrow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 8 2013, 11:42 AM   #25
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: TOS' incorrect world war I/II dead

BillJ wrote: View Post
With electronic media, by the time of World War III there may not have been a single Barnes and Noble still open.
Now combine that with EMP from the wide spread use of nuclear weapons.

Consider this possibility, if he were just referring to combat deaths, his figure for the second world war would seem still much too small.

Now for the longest time people thought the death count for Americans in the Korean war was about 54,000, it was only decades later that there was a study and it was found that the actual number was about 37,000.

When Spock said that there were 11 million (combat) deaths in the second world war, maybe he was right?



Last edited by T'Girl; November 8 2013 at 11:59 AM.
T'Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 9 2013, 05:20 PM   #26
Shon T'Hara
Lieutenant Commander
 
Shon T'Hara's Avatar
 
Re: TOS' incorrect world war I/II dead

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Originally there wasn't supposed to even be an ECON. It was China. All references to the ECON were originally China. They must not have wanted to piss off the Chinese government or fans, so they changed it at the last minute. (Source: ST:FC commentary track)

And given what the ECON looked like in "Encounter at Farpoint", that's not hard to believe.
Is there any evidence that what we saw in Farpoint was the Eastern Coalition? The only description of it I recall is that it's a courtroom from the Post Atomic Horror. For all we know the United States broke apart some time after the Bell Riots and the Eastern Coalition was one of the successor states which allied itself against the the Empire of Montana when WWIII broke out.

Assuming that ECON=China just smacks of Yellow Peril.
__________________
My blog | Goodreads
What will the producers of Star Trek: Voyager do now that Tupac is dead?
-Lucy A. Snyder
Shon T'Hara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 9 2013, 10:14 PM   #27
Mr. Laser Beam
Fleet Admiral
 
Mr. Laser Beam's Avatar
 
Location: The visitor's bullpen
View Mr. Laser Beam's Twitter Profile
Re: TOS' incorrect world war I/II dead

Shon T'Hara wrote: View Post
Is there any evidence that what we saw in Farpoint was the Eastern Coalition? The only description of it I recall is that it's a courtroom from the Post Atomic Horror. For all we know the United States broke apart some time after the Bell Riots and the Eastern Coalition was one of the successor states which allied itself against the the Empire of Montana when WWIII broke out.
Remember TNG's "The Royale"? It contained a US flag with 52 stars, which placed it anywhere from 2033 to 2079. 2079 was over 20 years AFTER the end of the war. Therefore, the US survived the war intact.

"Eastern" could indeed have meant something like Eastern Europe (although the Farpoint scenes definitely had a lot of Chinese influence), but it's not the eastern *US* - we know that much.

Although I admit the ECON could have been a rogue element operating *within* the US, kind of like those militia wackos. Especially since the logo on the soldiers' helmets (the guys who sniff drugs to keep them under control) is supposed to be Colonel Green's emblem...and Green is apparently American. (Also, in the barely-readable onscreen text from the Defiant logs in IAMD, Green is indeed a militia leader, kind of like the ultimate ultra-radical eco-terrorist.)

Assuming that ECON=China just smacks of Yellow Peril.
Don't look at me, I'm not the one who wrote the damn thing. As I said, it's on the audio commentary. And nobody 'assumed' anything; there were just some last-minute rewrites done, that's all.
__________________
In labor news: Longshoremen walked off the piers today. Rescue operations are continuing.
Mr. Laser Beam is online now   Reply With Quote
Old November 9 2013, 11:36 PM   #28
Nerys Myk
Fleet Admiral
 
Nerys Myk's Avatar
 
Location: House of Kang, now with ridges
Re: TOS' incorrect world war I/II dead

Is "alternate universe" the answer to every bonehead mistake the writers made?
__________________
The boring one, the one with Khan, the one where Spock returns, the one with whales, the dumb one, the last one, the one with Kirk, the one with the Borg, the stupid one, the bad one, the new one, the other one with Khan.
Nerys Myk is online now   Reply With Quote
Old November 10 2013, 04:02 AM   #29
Warped9
Admiral
 
Warped9's Avatar
 
Location: Brockville, Ontario, Canada
Re: TOS' incorrect world war I/II dead

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Is "alternate universe" the answer to every bonehead mistake the writers made?
Okay.
__________________
STAR TREK: 1964-1991, 2013-?
Warped9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 10 2013, 05:48 AM   #30
RPJOB
Commander
 
RPJOB's Avatar
 
Re: TOS' incorrect world war I/II dead

For me, every episode, book, comic, movie exists as a glimpse at an alternate universe. Some of them we have seen before and so they exist in the same universe. Others, show no obvious connection.

Was Khan a product of eugenics or genetic engineering? The answer is yes, depending on which universe we're watching.

Is there a 50 foot clone of Spock on the planet Phylos? Sure, just not in all universes.

Was Kirk a drunken frat boy or a stack of books with legs while at the Academy. Again, the answer is yes to both.

I much prefer the Klingons as depicted in The Final Reflection as opposed to the drunken, amoral biker gang we got in TNG/DS9. Does that mean that Ford's Klingons aren't real Klingons? Nope, they're just as real as any Klingon ever has been, which is to say, not at all. The same goes for Diane Duane's version of the Romulans as compared to the so called "official" version.

If the owners of Star Trek have allowed someone to legally publish or produce something with the name Star Trek on it, it counts. I'd even go so far as to include the fan films in that. If they're not issuing a cease and desist order then it's showing at least a degree of acceptance.

If something contradicts something that has come before I simply shift it to an alternate universe and carry on. Much easier to deal with than trying to wedge everything into one "prime" universe *Which is a dumb concept to begin with. It feels like we're back to imagining the Earth is the center of the universe.)
__________________
We can admit that we're killers ... but we're not going to kill today. That's all it takes! Knowing that we're not going to kill - today! - Kirk - A Taste of Armageddon
RPJOB is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:26 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.