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Old November 7 2013, 03:45 AM   #76
JeBuS
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Re: UNTO THE QUADRANT SHALL COME A GREAT DISASTER: 2387

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Hopefully the current praetor is off planet when it happens.
A vacation on DS9, perhaps?
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Old November 7 2013, 03:49 AM   #77
Nob Akimoto
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Re: UNTO THE QUADRANT SHALL COME A GREAT DISASTER: 2387

Countdown had someone other than Gel Kaemenor in charge by 2387. Though I suppose one doesn't need to have that element. That said, Nero still has to get the sceptre somehow, right?
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Old November 7 2013, 04:32 AM   #78
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Re: UNTO THE QUADRANT SHALL COME A GREAT DISASTER: 2387

Nob Akimoto wrote: View Post
Countdown had someone other than Gel Kaemenor in charge by 2387. Though I suppose one doesn't need to have that element. That said, Nero still has to get the sceptre somehow, right?
It was only in Countdown that the teral'n was identified as a praetorian sigil. As far as screen canon has established, it's just a fancy weapon. So the books wouldn't be required to interpret its origins the same way the comics did.
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Old November 7 2013, 04:46 AM   #79
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: UNTO THE QUADRANT SHALL COME A GREAT DISASTER: 2387

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
Well, reportedly they did try to put a stop to the publication of Primeverse fiction, but CBS refused.
That was debunked.
Christopher wrote: View Post
^Really? I hadn't heard that. Source/details?
A very short Trekmovie.com tweet back when the story came out, saying it was total BS.
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Old November 7 2013, 02:17 PM   #80
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Re: UNTO THE QUADRANT SHALL COME A GREAT DISASTER: 2387

Nob Akimoto wrote: View Post
rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
We really have no idea what, exactly, happened after Romulus was annihilated and Spock saved the remainder of the universe. All that we know is that Nero's ship and the Jellyfish were close enough to be sucked into the new timeline.

I'm strongly inclined to think that Romulan civilization has survived the destruction of the homeworld (and, perhaps, even some of the older and closer colonies). The novels particularly have established that Romulan interstellar civilization is older than human interstellar civilization, that Romulus has numerous colonies and protectorates, and that at the time of the Romulan War the Romulan sphere of influence was substantially larger and more developed than a human sphere of influence that stretched as far as Deneva. There's less reason to think that Romulan civilization will be destroyed by the loss of Romulus than there is to think that if (say) the Borg supercube had destroyed Earth human civilization would become defunct.
While we know that the Romulan state is more than Romulus, there does seem to be a pretty strong psychological identification of the homeworld with the entire empire. I'm sure part of this is from the whole "ROMAN EMPIRE IN SPAAAACE" element, but the impact of losing the homeworld would, most likely be extremely traumatic for the Romulans in a way that say the secession of Andor wasn't for the Federation.
Part of the endurance of the Romulan state will depend one what exactly binds the empire together. In the novels it did not take much post Nemesis for the Empire to split into two political entities. The loss of Romulus and any other core worlds might be enough for it all to fall apart.

If the Empire is maintained with terror and fear, then the loss of the core of that fear would change the equation. remember, unlike the Federation, the bulk of Romulan space would have to be occupied by subject worlds (I've always had a problem with the idea that monocultural/ethnic empires could ever match the size and power of the multicultural Federation). Those subject worlds might take the opportunity to break free of the rump RSE….much as the occupied/subject states of the former Soviet Union/Warsaw Pact used Russia's growing weakness as an opportunity to break free.

I would also imagine that it depends on how much of the Imperial Fleet survived.
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Old November 7 2013, 05:04 PM   #81
dansigal
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Re: UNTO THE QUADRANT SHALL COME A GREAT DISASTER: 2387

Not sure if this has been pointed out, but considering that this thread is speculating on how the books might handle future events, I feel like some of this discussion is getting very close to posting potential story ideas, which we should probably be staying away from.
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Old November 8 2013, 12:06 PM   #82
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Re: UNTO THE QUADRANT SHALL COME A GREAT DISASTER: 2387

Gotham Central wrote: View Post
Nob Akimoto wrote: View Post
rfmcdpei wrote: View Post
We really have no idea what, exactly, happened after Romulus was annihilated and Spock saved the remainder of the universe. All that we know is that Nero's ship and the Jellyfish were close enough to be sucked into the new timeline.

I'm strongly inclined to think that Romulan civilization has survived the destruction of the homeworld (and, perhaps, even some of the older and closer colonies). The novels particularly have established that Romulan interstellar civilization is older than human interstellar civilization, that Romulus has numerous colonies and protectorates, and that at the time of the Romulan War the Romulan sphere of influence was substantially larger and more developed than a human sphere of influence that stretched as far as Deneva. There's less reason to think that Romulan civilization will be destroyed by the loss of Romulus than there is to think that if (say) the Borg supercube had destroyed Earth human civilization would become defunct.
While we know that the Romulan state is more than Romulus, there does seem to be a pretty strong psychological identification of the homeworld with the entire empire. I'm sure part of this is from the whole "ROMAN EMPIRE IN SPAAAACE" element, but the impact of losing the homeworld would, most likely be extremely traumatic for the Romulans in a way that say the secession of Andor wasn't for the Federation.
Part of the endurance of the Romulan state will depend one what exactly binds the empire together. In the novels it did not take much post Nemesis for the Empire to split into two political entities. The loss of Romulus and any other core worlds might be enough for it all to fall apart.

If the Empire is maintained with terror and fear, then the loss of the core of that fear would change the equation. remember, unlike the Federation, the bulk of Romulan space would have to be occupied by subject worlds (I've always had a problem with the idea that monocultural/ethnic empires could ever match the size and power of the multicultural Federation). Those subject worlds might take the opportunity to break free of the rump RSE….much as the occupied/subject states of the former Soviet Union/Warsaw Pact used Russia's growing weakness as an opportunity to break free.
Hmm. We know next to nothing about the internal structure of the empire, and the relationship of subject races and different Romulan groups to wider imperial society. I can imagine secessions.

Here on Earth, some nation-states are much bigger than others: China versus Korea, say. Processes of cultural assimilation do operate on Earth that wouldn't in the case of empires, but aggressively expansionistic cultures which active promote their own growth while limiting or even reversing others' would still have an edge. In the era of the Romulan War, Haakona seems to have been roughly on par with Earth notwithstanding its disinterest in expansion, but, well, they don't exist any more.

(Maybe Romulan history since the mid-22nd century can be described as one of relative decline, as the Federation has grown much more quickly than the Empire ever could? Romulans might be establishing colonies and protectorates at a furious pace, but a civilization that has a narrower base than the Federation can't outpace it?)
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Old November 8 2013, 12:26 PM   #83
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Re: UNTO THE QUADRANT SHALL COME A GREAT DISASTER: 2387

Or maybe in the Prime universe, Spock will save the day, save Romulus, and push the Romulans into the hands of the Federation. If the prime timeline is to survive, the this probability must occur. It would make more sense for the prime universe to switch to the new quantum reality rather continue with the old one, where Romulus is wiped out and we know everything should have changed... but hasn't.
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Old November 8 2013, 12:50 PM   #84
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Re: UNTO THE QUADRANT SHALL COME A GREAT DISASTER: 2387

What do you mean, Zedferret? I don't understand.
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Old November 8 2013, 12:51 PM   #85
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Re: UNTO THE QUADRANT SHALL COME A GREAT DISASTER: 2387

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
Well, reportedly they did try to put a stop to the publication of Primeverse fiction, but CBS refused.
That was debunked.
Christopher wrote: View Post
^Really? I hadn't heard that. Source/details?
A very short Trekmovie.com tweet back when the story came out, saying it was total BS.
But who runs Trekmovie? Who is their tweeter? They aren't Bad Robot, are they? Nor CBS? They are likely a publicist?
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Old November 8 2013, 03:36 PM   #86
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Re: UNTO THE QUADRANT SHALL COME A GREAT DISASTER: 2387

Jarvisimo wrote: View Post
What do you mean, Zedferret? I don't understand.
I'll put it another way. If Spock and Nero disappear and Romulus is destroyed, that means the prime universe should be altered to the abramsverse. How can the primeverse exist when the timeline has been irrevocably altered, like in 'Yesterday's Enterprise'.

The primeverse would have to be either retconned with future temporal police fixing the damage, or switching to a different quantum timeline where things happen differently, such as no time travel for Spock and Nero, or Spock fixing the Hobus supernova, and thereby not splitting off the Abrams timeline. I feel this would be the best way to go. It would feel strange to see Romulus destroyed, and Spock vanished, yet the prime timeline continues as normal.
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Old November 8 2013, 03:56 PM   #87
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Re: UNTO THE QUADRANT SHALL COME A GREAT DISASTER: 2387

Zedferret wrote: View Post
I'll put it another way. If Spock and Nero disappear and Romulus is destroyed, that means the prime universe should be altered to the abramsverse. How can the primeverse exist when the timeline has been irrevocably altered, like in 'Yesterday's Enterprise'.
Actually, no. It shouldn't be. That's a story conceit based on bad, outdated physics. Strictly speaking, the original timeline "should" continue unaffected, because that's the outcome that makes the most physical sense. It's possible (albeit difficult) to rationalize timeline collapse as seen in prior Trek as something that can occasionally happen under specific circumstances, but it should not be interpreted as the default or inevitable outcome. Quantum physics says that as a rule, once two timelines have diverged, they both continue to exist separately and indefinitely. It's hypothetically posssible for two timelines to reconverge and one to be "erased" in favor of the other, but the circumstances to bring that about would be extremely improbable and difficult to achieve.

Yes, true, we've seen it happen in the majority of Trek time-travel stories -- but think about it. Fiction is about what happens when things go wrong. There's a selection bias at work. It's safe to assume that nearly all holodeck sessions occur without malfunction, that the vast majority of shuttlecraft flights occur without crashes, that the majority of planetary surveys are routine and don't involve any crewmembers being killed or abducted or meeting their idols from history or whatever. But routine occurrences aren't exciting to watch, so the stories we see are chosen to emphasize the minority of cases where things go wrong, where things happen abnormally. The things that happen in the stories we see usually represent the exception, not the rule. So there shouldn't be any problem accepting that the erasure of the original timeline is the exception, something that happens occasionally but not by default.
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Old November 8 2013, 08:11 PM   #88
Sran
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Re: UNTO THE QUADRANT SHALL COME A GREAT DISASTER: 2387

Zedferret wrote: View Post
It would feel strange to see Romulus destroyed, and Spock vanished, yet the prime timeline continues as normal.
No, it wouldn't. There's no reason why the prime timeline shouldn't continue to exist. From the perspective of anyone living in 2387, it would appear that Spock and Nero have disappeared. Events beyond that point in time would still continue unaffected for the inhabitants of that universe.

Christopher wrote: View Post
Quantum physics says that as a rule, once two timelines have diverged, they both continue to exist separately and indefinitely. It's hypothetically posssible for two timelines to reconverge and one to be "erased" in favor of the other, but the circumstances to bring that about would be extremely improbable and difficult to achieve.
It would seem bringing two separate timelines together would require knowing the exact reasons why their diverged in the first place, something that- as you've already said- would be virtually impossible to achieve because it would be extremely difficult to track down every reason for divergence in the timelines. One might be able to isolate the most significant reason (Edith Keeler living verses dying, for example). But it would be hard to pair down every single difference in the two continuities.

A best case scenario would be achieving the existence of two separate but similar timelines, much like what's observed in the Back to the Future films. Whenever Marty (and Doc) return to 1985, there are always small differences compared to when they left (Eastwood Ravine instead of Clayton Ravine or Lone Pine Mall instead of Twin Pines Mall). The most striking difference occurs due to Biff's theft of the sports almanac, something that's repaired only after Marty learns of the specific circumstances of how Biff's 1955 counterpart came to have the book in the first place.

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Old November 8 2013, 08:58 PM   #89
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Re: UNTO THE QUADRANT SHALL COME A GREAT DISASTER: 2387

Sran wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
Quantum physics says that as a rule, once two timelines have diverged, they both continue to exist separately and indefinitely. It's hypothetically posssible for two timelines to reconverge and one to be "erased" in favor of the other, but the circumstances to bring that about would be extremely improbable and difficult to achieve.
It would seem bringing two separate timelines together would require knowing the exact reasons why their diverged in the first place, something that- as you've already said- would be virtually impossible to achieve because it would be extremely difficult to track down every reason for divergence in the timelines. One might be able to isolate the most significant reason (Edith Keeler living verses dying, for example). But it would be hard to pair down every single difference in the two continuities.
It's not about knowledge, it's about entropy and probability. As far as the laws of physics are concerned, people and their minds are just ensembles of subatomic particles interacting through fundamental forces, so knowledge and awareness aren't a factor. In physical terms, in order to get two timelines to recombine, you'd need to get all their particles to align up in exactly the same states as each other. This is why divergent timelines diverge in the first place, though: because once the particles begin to move into different position and energy states, the differences keep multiplying and the probability of them all spontaneously coming back into alignment quickly becomes infinitesimal. It's akin to expecting the grains of sand on a beach to reassemble into a sand castle that had been built there weeks earlier -- or to reassemble into the solid rocks they were originally part of thousands of years earlier. The probability of such a thing happening is so small as to be effectively zero. And that's dealing with far, far fewer particles than are involved when you're talking about an entire universe, or at least the observed and mutually interacting portion of it that's diverged into more than one history.

Basically, the only way to get those grains of sand back into a sand castle -- to reverse the entropy that's caused them to drift into random configurations -- is to do work, to make an active effort to bring them back into the desired shape. So bringing two timelines back into physical alignment so they can reconverge would also require some kind of force acting against entropy to draw them back into unity. (In Watching the Clock I used the gibberish "anti-time" phenomenon from "All Good Things" as this force -- complete nonsense, but anti-time implies anti-entropy, and that's what I needed.)
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Old November 8 2013, 09:20 PM   #90
Sran
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Re: UNTO THE QUADRANT SHALL COME A GREAT DISASTER: 2387

Christopher wrote: View Post
Basically, the only way to get those grains of sand back into a sand castle -- to reverse the entropy that's caused them to drift into random configurations -- is to do work, to make an active effort to bring them back into the desired shape. So bringing two timelines back into physical alignment so they can reconverge would also require some kind of force acting against entropy to draw them back into unity. (In Watching the Clock I used the gibberish "anti-time" phenomenon from "All Good Things" as this force -- complete nonsense, but anti-time implies anti-entropy, and that's what I needed.)
An excellent analogy. But I would still argue that even if it were possible to reassemble the sand castle back into the structure it was before it was toppled over, who's to say each individual grain of sand would be in the same place it was before the castle was destroyed? That's more or less what I was trying to articulate with my theory about "similar but nonetheless divergent timelines." Even reassembling the castle wouldn't completely eradicate the differences between the timelines that already existed. It would only minimize them.

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