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Old November 4 2013, 10:19 AM   #421
Mytran
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Certainly sounds plausible!

Concerning deck heights in TNG (and how they should relate to the TMP and earlier starships) I found these:

http://ottens.co.uk/forgottentrek/wp...-schematic.jpg

http://ottens.co.uk/forgottentrek/wp...schematic1.jpg

Some of the details are a little unclear, but the 12' height of the Main Engineering Deck is clear. Also clear is the fudging used for the upper and lower levels, set at a mere 7'6"

I recall that the "making of" Voyager book shows a cross section of Sickbay, which measures 10' to the top of the lighting mesh. I imagine tall rooms are handy for sound booms etc.
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Old November 5 2013, 07:02 PM   #422
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Mytran wrote: View Post
Certainly sounds plausible!

Concerning deck heights in TNG (and how they should relate to the TMP and earlier starships) I found these:

http://ottens.co.uk/forgottentrek/wp...-schematic.jpg

http://ottens.co.uk/forgottentrek/wp...schematic1.jpg

Some of the details are a little unclear, but the 12' height of the Main Engineering Deck is clear. Also clear is the fudging used for the upper and lower levels, set at a mere 7'6"
This confirms my suspicion that the TNG engine room wouldn't fit on the Enterprise-A as seen in TUC, if the core was in the same place it was in TMP and the ship the official 305m length.
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Old November 5 2013, 09:51 PM   #423
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Well, the TNG Engine Room set (at least the area around the core) was basically the TMP set with new paint job. Certainly the heights woud have remained unchanged, so if the Engine Room wouldn't have fitted into the Enterprise in TUC, it wouldn't have done in TMP either!

At the official 1000' lengths anyway
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Old November 6 2013, 11:19 PM   #424
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

I've been going back and looking at the only cross deck example we have for the refit saucer section - the Recreation Deck. I was curious to see how close the 9'6" proposed deck height was. The results were not what I expected!

I looked at http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a.../tmphd0385.jpg and http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a.../tmphd1986.jpg
By comparing the width of the turboshaft with the height of each section and reasoning that the width must be around 8 feet, I arrived at a floor to ceiling deck height of 12 FEET!

Just for fun I also looked at the cargo bay turboshafts http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a.../tmphd0385.jpg and the proportions are very similiar. It really does seem that the Recreation Deck levels are 12' apart.

So, in the same why that the modeller of the Excelsior was unaware that the secondary and primary hull were supposed to have different deck heights and assumed they were all around 9 feet, the set builders of TMP seemed to have gone with a 12' deck height for ALL their cross level sets.

Obviously, even at a ship length of 1164' the Rec Deck will not fit into the location suggested by offical sources. In fact, the more I look at it the more it seems to suggest a room that should exist along the centreline, with its large open and symmetrical design. The twin turboshafts mirror the two on the bridge (although the distance between them is greater on the Rec Deck).
The "forgotten Trek" website goes into some details about other potential locations for the Rec Deck, and I'm sure I read somewhere that the set designers originally wanted to place the room where the impulse engines were - obviously this was impossible, but it would have fitted the room nicely.

So, where could the Rec Deck actually be located? If we are to assume that the 8 "windows" are actually holographic viewers then it can be located inboard easily enough - but it would require that at least part of the saucer have 12' decks. The other possible location is underneath the Cargo Deck - where the so-called arboretum windows are, And there could still be two mini-arboretums, positioned behind the bulkheads on the upper level of the Recreation Deck.
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Old November 7 2013, 12:20 AM   #425
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

^Holy cow, you made me realize something. For years my Dad has maintained that those blue windows for the botanical gardens was where the Rec Deck was. Looking at the turboshafts in these pictures, I now see how he came to that conclusion.

Makes me wonder why have twin shafts in the cargo bay. I can understand in the saucer because of the twin turbolifts on the bridge. But that is in the saucer. Why have two vertical in the engineering hull?

-WB

ETA: Here is the money shot right here:
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a.../tmphd0549.jpg

This shows the height differential between two decks. Just eyeballing, it seems like it is somewhere between 9 and 10 feet. Definitely not 12 feet.

ETA (again): I just noticed that you can see the warp nacelle in the back windows. Since this is the HD screenshot, this must be the theatrical version, not the DE, correct? I never noticed that that was there.
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Last edited by Workbee; November 7 2013 at 12:52 AM. Reason: Added TMP RecDeck Screenshot
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Old November 7 2013, 02:17 AM   #426
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

I never got why the turboshafts were transluced and lighted.
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Old November 7 2013, 05:11 AM   #427
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Mytran wrote: View Post
Certainly sounds plausible!

Concerning deck heights in TNG (and how they should relate to the TMP and earlier starships) I found these:

http://ottens.co.uk/forgottentrek/wp...-schematic.jpg

http://ottens.co.uk/forgottentrek/wp...schematic1.jpg

Some of the details are a little unclear, but the 12' height of the Main Engineering Deck is clear. Also clear is the fudging used for the upper and lower levels, set at a mere 7'6"

I recall that the "making of" Voyager book shows a cross section of Sickbay, which measures 10' to the top of the lighting mesh. I imagine tall rooms are handy for sound booms etc.
Fascinating. I can't help but wonder if it's coincidental that 12 +7.5 x 2 = 27/3 = 9. I can forgive the fudging, though. And as you observed, I'm fairly sure the structure is the same so one must conclude that this is probably how those decks were arranged for TMP, too.

Regarding the Voyager, I had originally thought perhaps TNG era ships had 10' decks until dissecting the D cross section suggested 9.5' decks. Still, I haven't thought to try the Voyager.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
This confirms my suspicion that the TNG engine room wouldn't fit on the Enterprise-A as seen in TUC, if the core was in the same place it was in TMP and the ship the official 305m length.
I'm probably missing something but why not?

Mytran wrote: View Post
I've been going back and looking at the only cross deck example we have for the refit saucer section - the Recreation Deck. I was curious to see how close the 9'6" proposed deck height was. The results were not what I expected!

I looked at http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a.../tmphd0385.jpg and http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a.../tmphd1986.jpg
By comparing the width of the turboshaft with the height of each section and reasoning that the width must be around 8 feet, I arrived at a floor to ceiling deck height of 12 FEET!

Just for fun I also looked at the cargo bay turboshafts http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a.../tmphd0385.jpg and the proportions are very similiar. It really does seem that the Recreation Deck levels are 12' apart.

So, in the same why that the modeller of the Excelsior was unaware that the secondary and primary hull were supposed to have different deck heights and assumed they were all around 9 feet, the set builders of TMP seemed to have gone with a 12' deck height for ALL their cross level sets.

Obviously, even at a ship length of 1164' the Rec Deck will not fit into the location suggested by offical sources. In fact, the more I look at it the more it seems to suggest a room that should exist along the centreline, with its large open and symmetrical design. The twin turboshafts mirror the two on the bridge (although the distance between them is greater on the Rec Deck).

The "forgotten Trek" website goes into some details about other potential locations for the Rec Deck, and I'm sure I read somewhere that the set designers originally wanted to place the room where the impulse engines were - obviously this was impossible, but it would have fitted the room nicely.

So, where could the Rec Deck actually be located? If we are to assume that the 8 "windows" are actually holographic viewers then it can be located inboard easily enough - but it would require that at least part of the saucer have 12' decks. The other possible location is underneath the Cargo Deck - where the so-called arboretum windows are, And there could still be two mini-arboretums, positioned behind the bulkheads on the upper level of the Recreation Deck.
Good googly moogly. What a can of worms that is. Shall we examine the torpedo bay next?

I do wonder why the rim location was eventually chosen and the details of it so mucky, when other deck layout details outlined by Mr. Probert are so, well, clear and concise.

The one problem I see with trying to put it somewhere other than where it is, is that we seem to see the ceiling of drydock through those windows. How do your figures stack up against the known heights of any of the present principal actors? Shatner, for example.

Workbee wrote: View Post
^Holy cow, you made me realize something. For years my Dad has maintained that those blue windows for the botanical gardens was where the Rec Deck was. Looking at the turboshafts in these pictures, I now see how he came to that conclusion.

Makes me wonder why have twin shafts in the cargo bay. I can understand in the saucer because of the twin turbolifts on the bridge. But that is in the saucer. Why have two vertical in the engineering hull?

-WB

ETA: Here is the money shot right here:
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a.../tmphd0549.jpg

This shows the height differential between two decks. Just eyeballing, it seems like it is somewhere between 9 and 10 feet. Definitely not 12 feet.

ETA (again): I just noticed that you can see the warp nacelle in the back windows. Since this is the HD screenshot, this must be the theatrical version, not the DE, correct? I never noticed that that was there.
Great finds! I don't remember for sure if that's in the original, myself.

Shat Happens wrote: View Post
I never got why the turboshafts were transluced and lighted.
I always thought that was rather odd, too.

My friends, as you've noticed I like to wander away from this project for about a day or so to contemplate. This has proven a pretty effective pattern for me, since most of my epiphanies happen during these little wander-offs. Well, I think now, finally, truly, I have the correct and proper deck layouts for both the larger and smaller (official) versions of Excelsior.

As the World's Record holder for the loser whose stared at the most images of Excelsior (what do I win, anyway?) I was irked by the fact that my latest attempt based on the Tobias Richter renders was suddenly 640 meters long instead of the 600-620 figure I expected. Well, I suddenly realized that she was too damn long. I had compared sections of the Enterprise-B model study plans I posted upthread, but hadn't actually bothered to study a composited version against Tobias's renders!!

Well, shit. So I did indeed create such a composite and compared it to the available side views of the model, as well as various other models from around the web, and finally came up with a new outline (Version 4 for those who are counting, although I suspect I've deleted and redone it a few times without adding a number.) Anyhoo, applying my IMO concrete deck alignments for the secondary hull to it, I was able to again derive large (12 ft secondary, 9.5 foot saucer) and small versions of the ship.

Click for mucho embiggenment:


So, let's talk math. By now you guys know how much I love math, right?

Version One (12 ft secondary hull decks, 9.5 ft saucer decks

12ft/30px = .4 ft/px
5060 * .4 = 2024 ft = 617 m

9.5ft/24px = .4 ft/px
5060 * .4 = 2024 ft = 617 m

Bazinga. The two heights even agree!

Now onto the smaller version. To try to get close to the 467 meter official size and prove my theory about all decks being equal height and all decks being of the smaller height, it becomes necessary to drop to a mere 9 feet:

Version Two (9 ft all decks)

9ft/30px = .3ft/px
5060 * .3 = 1518 ft = 462.7 m

Not quite 467 meters, but believe you me it's as close as you can get without some painfully long decimals. I consider my theory as to where the 467 meter size came from now proven.

Here's one final interesting piece of math. (King Daniel, watch this one.)

467m/462.7m = 1.0092

So the difference between the official size and mine is 1.0092 If I multiply my larger size times this...

617*1.009 = 622.5 meters.

(Hey King, look familiar? )

So, I'm choosing to blame imprecise pixel alignment for the deviation. Sticking with 467 meters for the smaller official size, I hereby proclaim my larger size to be 622 meters.

Of neat consistency, if you check out the above you'll see I labeled the saucer decks by letter (with an optional 0-prefixed number designation as well) and the secondary hull decks starting at the neck top with digits only. The result? Deck 15 is just where Demora Sulu thinks it should be on the larger ship, and pretty damn close on the smaller one too! (Remember the secondary hull configuration doesn't change between the two, but we lose a deck in the neck because of the saucer window requirements.)

Now, remember my scaling comparison between those two famous screenshots? With my slightly revised scaling of the big Excelsior now applied:



Drown the kids and shoot the neighbors... that's spot on. (Again, that's next to a 642 meter Enterprise-D and 305 meter Enterprise refit.)

My friends, the Excelsior class starship, at least according to the original filming model, is 622 meters long.

Thoughts?
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Old November 7 2013, 08:08 AM   #428
Mytran
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Workbee wrote: View Post
ETA: Here is the money shot right here:
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a.../tmphd0549.jpg

This shows the height differential between two decks. Just eyeballing, it seems like it is somewhere between 9 and 10 feet. Definitely not 12 feet.
True, but you have to remember that those guys at the back are standing on the raised platform, which is around 18-24 inches high:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a.../tmphd2014.jpg

Workbee wrote: View Post
ETA (again): I just noticed that you can see the warp nacelle in the back windows. Since this is the HD screenshot, this must be the theatrical version, not the DE, correct? I never noticed that that was there.
Praetor wrote: View Post
The one problem I see with trying to put it somewhere other than where it is, is that we seem to see the ceiling of drydock through those windows.
In moving the Rec Deck to another location, the 8 "windows" would have to be reinterpreted as holographic viewers (which could show anything). Since that is what Spock, McCoy and Kirk would have to be standing in front of during the "please sit down" briefing scene, and since the set was built from leftover bits of the Rec Deck, I see no problem in this particular retcon.
Hmmm, once the Rec Deck is relocated from the aft starboard saucer, perhaps the "sit down" set could be placed there instead?

Praetor wrote: View Post
How do your figures stack up against the known heights of any of the present principal actors? Shatner, for example.
I'm only really eyeballing at this stage, so I'd be interested to find that myself! He does look short against the background in this shot though:
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a.../tmphd0557.jpg

Praetor wrote: View Post
...I can't help but wonder if it's coincidental that 12 +7.5 x 2 = 27/3 = 9. I can forgive the fudging, though. And as you observed, I'm fairly sure the structure is the same so one must conclude that this is probably how those decks were arranged for TMP, too.

Regarding the Voyager, I had originally thought perhaps TNG era ships had 10' decks until dissecting the D cross section suggested 9.5' decks. Still, I haven't thought to try the Voyager.
That's an interesting coincidence about the numbers! As for Voyager, official sources often quote 4 metres for its decks, presumably to allow for the numerous Jefferies Tubes that snake between the corridor levels. There's nothing confirmed on the show however, so we have a bit of freedom there. It is quite possible that there would 9' decks on every level, it's just that Starfleet engine rooms all featured a raised centre around the core. And although Voyager had two doors on its upper level, they were never shown to be corridor access and could just as easily have been closets. Certainly the corridor decks in the movie First Contact are not 12' as crewmen merrily jump down between them. Hasn't Picard ever heard of the stairs?

Praetor wrote: View Post
Good googly moogly. What a can of worms that is. Shall we examine the torpedo bay next?
An interesting proposal...
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Old November 7 2013, 02:04 PM   #429
Mytran
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Workbee wrote: View Post
ETA: Here is the money shot right here:
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a.../tmphd0549.jpg

This shows the height differential between two decks. Just eyeballing, it seems like it is somewhere between 9 and 10 feet. Definitely not 12 feet.
OK, I've been having a rethink. Even allowing for the extra 18" platform, I tend to agree with you that 12' is probably a bit much. Unfortunately (unlike the Cargo Bay) we can't see the edges of the turboshafts, which caused me to guess a bit more than usual as to where I should put the 8' marker. Obviously, different widths give different proportional heights, as below:




10' decks seem a bit more workable and are also more in line as to what was going on behind the scenes at the time, as shown by Probert's "don't forget the undercut" version of the Rec Deck:


(click for biggie)


The 20' callout for two decks is clearly shown.

Workbee wrote: View Post
^Holy cow, you made me realize something. For years my Dad has maintained that those blue windows for the botanical gardens was where the Rec Deck was. Looking at the turboshafts in these pictures, I now see how he came to that conclusion.

Makes me wonder why have twin shafts in the cargo bay. I can understand in the saucer because of the twin turbolifts on the bridge. But that is in the saucer. Why have two vertical in the engineering hull?
According to Mr Scott's Guide To The Enterprise, the arboretum was indeed a potential candidate for the Recreation Deck. How much real world truth there is in that, I don't know.

To me, twin shafts in the cargo bay make a lot more sense than just one. After all, they are the ONLY means of access from the top to the bottom of that large empty space, and also service any shuttlebay personnel. If the turboshafts were not located where they are then crewmen would have to walk to the extreme forward end of the secondary hull in order to access them - a bit too far for our noble Starfleet Officers, obviously!
Compare that to the Rec Deck, where there are no less than FOUR turbolift exits in a much smaller space, and they are all clustered together! The Cargo Bay is positively spartan by those standards.
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Old November 7 2013, 02:22 PM   #430
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

I was just in the process of relocating that original Rec Deck sketch of Mr. Probert with the ventral curvature cannibalizing floor space but you beat me to it.

Andrew Probert tried to persuade the TMP producers to pay attention to the height potential of the saucer but they decided to ignore it, insisting audiences wouldn't pay attention.

Add to this the flat floor and we almost inevitably have to conclude that this Rec Deck has to be in the engineering hull instead.

(It's ridiculous: The producers add the starboard stern rectangular windows to place it inside the saucer but these are barely visible for the general audience to get this intention.

On the other hand we have the fans that are able to spot the windows but immediately notice that the room is way too tall to possibly fit inside the saucer. Quite illogical! Alternately, we could assume there's some kind of Terratin shrinking device involved, notice how the high walls correspond to the shape of the smaller corridor walls )

Mytran wrote: View Post
In moving the Rec Deck to another location, the 8 "windows" would have to be reinterpreted as holographic viewers (which could show anything). Since that is what Spock, McCoy and Kirk would have to be standing in front of during the "please sit down" briefing scene, and since the set was built from leftover bits of the Rec Deck, I see no problem in this particular retcon.
Hmmm, once the Rec Deck is relocated from the aft starboard saucer, perhaps the "sit down" set could be placed there instead?
Sounds like the only rationalization that makes sense. Unfortunately the "sit down" Officers Lounge "windows" show a perfect stern view you wouldn't have from any of these 8 windows.

Definitely something worth fixing for the next TMP-R...

Bob

P.S. If the "money shot" of the Rec Deck supposedly shows the view of the drydock behind the window (top row, third from the left), how comes that these illuminated overhead panels visible though the windows do not exist in drydock?
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Last edited by Robert Comsol; November 7 2013 at 02:42 PM.
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Old November 7 2013, 02:49 PM   #431
Mytran
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

I believe they are meant to be reflections from the Rec Deck ceiling. The "windows" actually were actually painted with the details on as filmed. There's a behind-the-scenes photo somewhere showing this.

EDIT
Just found a low-res example
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1168/...b51691fe_o.jpg

Last edited by Mytran; November 7 2013 at 03:03 PM.
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Old November 7 2013, 03:10 PM   #432
Robert Comsol
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Actually, there exists a large backdrop painting and IIRC it was featured in one of the STARLOG SPFX books. It does show the starboard nacelle and the drydock complex, viewed from these 8 windows. I'll check it out, later.

Bob
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Old November 8 2013, 04:28 AM   #433
Praetor
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Mytran wrote: View Post
Workbee wrote: View Post
ETA (again): I just noticed that you can see the warp nacelle in the back windows. Since this is the HD screenshot, this must be the theatrical version, not the DE, correct? I never noticed that that was there.
In moving the Rec Deck to another location, the 8 "windows" would have to be reinterpreted as holographic viewers (which could show anything). Since that is what Spock, McCoy and Kirk would have to be standing in front of during the "please sit down" briefing scene, and since the set was built from leftover bits of the Rec Deck, I see no problem in this particular retcon.

Hmmm, once the Rec Deck is relocated from the aft starboard saucer, perhaps the "sit down" set could be placed there instead?
If not for the deck heights, I would say perhaps it could somehow go in the middle of the saucer core somewhere... however I'm inclined to agree with Bob that somewhere in the secondary hull makes more sense, if only for the deck height reason. Now, as to where.... hoboy. That sucker's pretty full up.

I'm inclined to be more forgiving of sets for some reason... I'm not entirely sure why. I just... am.

Mytran wrote: View Post
I'm only really eyeballing at this stage, so I'd be interested to find that myself! He does look short against the background in this shot though:
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a.../tmphd0557.jpg
Maybe the scene where Deckey're standing pr and Ilia are standing next to the Enteprise history alcove would be relevant? I think Stephen Collins might be a nice even 6' tall, and they're standing pretty close to the wall.

Mytran wrote: View Post
That's an interesting coincidence about the numbers! As for Voyager, official sources often quote 4 metres for its decks, presumably to allow for the numerous Jefferies Tubes that snake between the corridor levels. There's nothing confirmed on the show however, so we have a bit of freedom there. It is quite possible that there would 9' decks on every level, it's just that Starfleet engine rooms all featured a raised centre around the core. And although Voyager had two doors on its upper level, they were never shown to be corridor access and could just as easily have been closets. Certainly the corridor decks in the movie First Contact are not 12' as crewmen merrily jump down between them. Hasn't Picard ever heard of the stairs?
Agreed all around.

Workbee wrote: View Post
ETA: Here is the money shot right here:
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a.../tmphd0549.jpg

This shows the height differential between two decks. Just eyeballing, it seems like it is somewhere between 9 and 10 feet. Definitely not 12 feet.
Ok, then maybe somewhere in the saucer core after all.

Mytran wrote: View Post
10' decks seem a bit more workable and are also more in line as to what was going on behind the scenes at the time, as shown by Probert's "don't forget the undercut" version of the Rec Deck:


(click for biggie)


The 20' callout for two decks is clearly shown.
Well, ain't that interesting. I think somehow the top and bottom saucer thicknesses are meant to add another foot... otherwise, at 10 feet each, the ship's overall size starts to drift out of fudge range.

Mytran wrote: View Post
I believe they are meant to be reflections from the Rec Deck ceiling. The "windows" actually were actually painted with the details on as filmed. There's a behind-the-scenes photo somewhere showing this.

EDIT
Just found a low-res example
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1168/...b51691fe_o.jpg
Fascinating! I never knew that.
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Old November 8 2013, 10:35 AM   #434
Robert Comsol
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Found it where I remembered it last to be (I cut off the top picture of the TMP Enterprise publicity shot, especially because it was flopped and therefore did not show 8 rectangular windows on the starboard side):



What we see to the left is obviously and at least a draft for the backdrop painting of the 8 Rec Deck windows. What's interesting to notice is that this design of the spacedock illuminating panels reflects an earlier production painting (in the same Starlog book on page 94) with what appears to be a late Jefferies Phase II Enterprise (plenty of windows at the saucer's underside and a TOS inspired sensor dish), however the starboard nacelle is clearly the Probert design.

What ended up in the TMP Rec Deck scene is a variation of that painting, where the overhead illuminating panels behind the windows seem to be more compatible with the overhead illuminating panels inside the TMP Enterprise.
(too bad that the starboard nacelle is clearly visible in the background).

What I found absolutely astonishing was the text annotation, which just confirms that Mytran was/is onto something. The text makes it abundantly clear that the Rec Deck was planned to be inside the engineering hull.

I can't help the feeling that the decision to relocate it into the saucer was a last minute decision motivated by the desire to show the starboard nacelle in the background of the windows - which somehow didn't turn out that well as they probably hoped because you can hardly see it, especially given the short duration of the decisive shot.

Now, you add the ambient bird chirping sounds in the Ilia-Decker Rec Deck scene and I just can't help to wonder what's the point of listening to ambient nature noise, then interrupt it by a turbo lift ride to the botanical section (quite a mood killer for romantic interests) - and continue to listen to nature sounds down there. It-does-not-make-sense!

Relocating the entire Rec Deck (and its two parallel turbo shafts) back to its original place in the engineering hull looks most definitely like the lesser of two evils to me, I wholeheartedly agree with Mytran.

Bob
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Last edited by Robert Comsol; November 8 2013 at 01:01 PM.
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Old November 8 2013, 12:20 PM   #435
Robert Comsol
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

I mentioned in post # 392 that I would publish a TOS Enterprise draft for the deck alignment in the engineering hull I did last year.

I just did so in my TOS Enterprise deck plan thread, you can access the latest post here: http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?...&postcount=299

Bob
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