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Future of Trek Discussion of future Trek projects.

View Poll Results: Do fans want the prime timeline back?
I'm a fan and I want the Prime timeline back. 195 56.20%
I'm a fan and I don't want the Prime timeline back. 57 16.43%
I'm a fan and wouldn't mind if it came back. 38 10.95%
I don't care, just give me Trek! 51 14.70%
I don't know. 6 1.73%
Voters: 347. You may not vote on this poll

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Old November 6 2013, 04:42 AM   #571
Nerys Myk
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
CDR6 wrote: View Post
I'm with the Lynx on this one. So many possibilities in the prime-verse unexplored yet.
I'm not so sure. They were already to the point by Voyager that they were retelling stories and just gluing different pieces of rubber to actors foreheads to make "new" aliens.
That's the fault of writers who were running short on imagination. It's not the fault of the series itself or the universe in which the series was set.
If we're being honest, Star Trek began retelling stories while TOS was on the air by using plots and elements seen in previous episodes and by using plots that has been seen before, either in film, on TV or even in print. It what you do with the elements that make up a story that makes it "good" not if the elements have been seen before.
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Old November 6 2013, 05:17 AM   #572
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

bbjeg wrote: View Post
^But they went out of their way to point out that Returns was homage sequel to Superman and Superman II instead of saying it was the next movie in the series and it's safe to say they never intended to fit III and IV back in.
Of course they didn't say it was the next movie in the series after the Superman IV fiasco/train wreck, no matter what "their intentions" were. Superman III hadn't been exactly smooth sailing at the box office either. Somehow my point about not scaring off viewers didn't take.
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Old November 6 2013, 05:32 AM   #573
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
I think Greg Cox has a good point. A failure to reference events does not necessitate disowning that part of continuity.
Greg and this handsome fellow a few posts further up
Timewalker wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
CDR6 wrote: View Post
I'm with the Lynx on this one. So many possibilities in the prime-verse unexplored yet.
I'm not so sure. They were already to the point by Voyager that they were retelling stories and just gluing different pieces of rubber to actors foreheads to make "new" aliens.
That's the fault of writers who were running short on imagination. It's not the fault of the series itself or the universe in which the series was set.


That's rather dismissive of everyone who has watched ST from the start (or at least who has seen TOS plus the later series). It's best not to go on the assumption that your target audience is stupid.
It goes back before Voyager - Star Trek: The Motion Picture was a remake of "The Changeling"
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
No it's not. "How did the Federation come about?" is a question fans have been asking since TOS. How do you tell that story? A prequel. The execution was hit-and-miss (miss in seasons one and two, BIG hit in three and four IMO), but the concept of a prequel is a sound one.

And how else do you tell new stories with a young Kirk and Spock, without having to worry about fans going, "We know they'll make it because Kirk doesn't die until in Generations"? You reboot it so those prior destinies are irrelevant. We now have that same universe with hundreds of races, but where anything can happen.
You use your imagination, same as all the novel authors who had to work within that restriction. If they'd thrown up their hands and whined, "This is impossible!!!" there would have been far fewer Star Trek novels.
Yet with all those novels, we knew everyone would be okay and tension was lost as a result. Introducing an element of doubt, no matter how small, goes a long way.
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Old November 6 2013, 05:37 AM   #574
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
I think Greg Cox has a good point. A failure to reference events does not necessitate disowning that part of continuity.
Greg and this handsome fellow a few posts further up
D'oh!

---

As far as being "short on imagination", whatever that really means, let's not forget that the very first episode filmed riffed Forbidden Planet up and down. Apologies in advance, if someone already mentioned that in this thread.
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Old November 6 2013, 06:24 AM   #575
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
That's rather dismissive of everyone who has watched ST from the start (or at least who has seen TOS plus the later series). It's best not to go on the assumption that your target audience is stupid.
Gotta jump in again. Assuming that every viewer is not necessarily a hardcore Trek expert who knows the entire history of Star Trek backwards and forward does mean NOT mean you think they're "stupid."

It's just acknowledging that most of your audience is not obsessed with "timelines" and "canon"--and there's no reason they should be. The world is full of smart people who may just have a casual interest in STAR TREK. And your "target audience" is going to run the full spectrum from first-time viewers to lifelong fans. And your goal should be to appeal to all of the above, not just the folks at either end of the spectrum.

As I've written before, Trek is not just for us Trekkies. And "accessible" is not a dirty word.
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Old November 6 2013, 06:52 AM   #576
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
That's rather dismissive of everyone who has watched ST from the start (or at least who has seen TOS plus the later series). It's best not to go on the assumption that your target audience is stupid.
Gotta jump in again. Assuming that every viewer is not necessarily a hardcore Trek expert who knows the entire history of Star Trek backwards and forward does mean NOT mean you think they're "stupid."

It's just acknowledging that most of your audience is not obsessed with "timelines" and "canon"--and there's no reason they should be. The world is full of smart people who may just have a casual interest in STAR TREK. And your "target audience" is going to run the full spectrum from first-time viewers to lifelong fans. And your goal should be to appeal to all of the above, not just the folks at either end of the spectrum.

As I've written before, Trek is not just for us Trekkies. And "accessible" is not a dirty word.
I'm quite aware that many Trek fans don't know every last detail. My brain glazes over when I see arguments about the technical aspects of some particular make and model of Klingon/Romulan ship. I never notice those things - just like I tend to notice only superficial details of RL vehicles.

The thing is, though, that knowledge isn't critical for enjoyment of Star Trek stories (unless you happen to be someone who has memorized every bit of data about these ships).

What I object to is the idea of "So what if we get something really, really fundamentally wrong? They'll never know the difference!" As I mentioned elsewhere, one of the people involved in TMP had that attitude, and thank goodness his ideas never made it into the movie.

I find the notion of people being unable to tell the prime universe from the Abramsverse to be dismissive and implies that the audience is stupid.
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Old November 6 2013, 07:06 AM   #577
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Eh, most people can figure it out. I've introduced more people into Trek with DS9. All I have to explain about Wolf 359 is, "the captain from another series was captured by those cyborgs and made to turn against his own side but was rescued later." They can figure out this happened after Captain Kirk and the intro makes them a bit curious about Picard and TNG. But they still jump into DS9's universe rather easily with what Emissary provides on it's own.

I doubt anyone who watched Dark Knight asked "Why is the Joker still alive, didn't Michael Keaton kill him in the 1989 movie?" At least without being deliberately dense. Same with all the Trek series and the reboot.
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Old November 6 2013, 07:28 AM   #578
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
As I mentioned elsewhere, one of the people involved in TMP had that attitude, and thank goodness his ideas never made it into the movie.
Who was this person, and what were his ideas?

I find the notion of people being unable to tell the prime universe from the Abramsverse to be dismissive and implies that the audience is stupid.
To most people, the differences just don't rise to the level of something to be bothered about (cf., what R. Star said about the Joker).
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Old November 6 2013, 09:28 AM   #579
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
The vast audience that makes these movies money and would make a tv show profitable won't even know the difference between this timeline and the prime one.

That's rather dismissive of everyone who has watched ST from the start (or at least who has seen TOS plus the later series). It's best not to go on the assumption that your target audience is stupid.
This is a complete misread of my post.

I am not talking about "everyone who has watched ST from the start". I am talking about the bulk of the movie audience who has not watched it. We are not the vast audience of which I speak.
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Old November 6 2013, 11:40 AM   #580
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

STAR TREK is, as perhaps it always was, out of the hands of the fans. And after having read most of the ideas fans have for a new series ... I'm glad that it is! But any timeline that STAR TREK happens to find itself in ... at least it's new product, which there hasn't been enough of for too long, in my opinion. Waiting years between movie sequels is not enough. I need something far more substantial ...
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Old November 6 2013, 11:55 AM   #581
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Only a few year ago we thought we were getting NOTHING. Ever again.
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Old November 6 2013, 12:56 PM   #582
Timewalker
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
As I mentioned elsewhere, one of the people involved in TMP had that attitude, and thank goodness his ideas never made it into the movie.
Who was this person, and what were his ideas?
I don't recall exactly where I read this. It could have been in a magazine article, or maybe Chekov's Enterprise, or some other "making of" book. Once I finish unpacking the rest of my ST books, I can check.

The ideas were to put some kind of Mayan/Incan mystical mumbo-jumbo in the movie, and when told that wasn't a good idea, the person shrugged and said (referring to the intended movie audience), "They'll never know the difference."

I really dislike it when TPTB in charge of making a movie or the authors of a book assume their viewers/readers are stupid.

teacake wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
The vast audience that makes these movies money and would make a tv show profitable won't even know the difference between this timeline and the prime one.
That's rather dismissive of everyone who has watched ST from the start (or at least who has seen TOS plus the later series). It's best not to go on the assumption that your target audience is stupid.
This is a complete misread of my post.

I am not talking about "everyone who has watched ST from the start". I am talking about the bulk of the movie audience who has not watched it. We are not the vast audience of which I speak.
If "misread" = "misunderstanding", I accept your clarification.
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Old November 6 2013, 03:24 PM   #583
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
As I mentioned elsewhere, one of the people involved in TMP had that attitude, and thank goodness his ideas never made it into the movie.
Who was this person, and what were his ideas?

I find the notion of people being unable to tell the prime universe from the Abramsverse to be dismissive and implies that the audience is stupid.
To most people, the differences just don't rise to the level of something to be bothered about (cf., what R. Star said about the Joker).
Good point. There's a distinction between "not knowing" and "not caring." For the vast majority of potential viewers, a new timeline is hardly a deal-breaker. Restoring the old timeline is not a priority--nor should it be. And it's not because they're stupid. It's because they care more about the current plots, characters, etc. than stressing out about whether they're consistent with every previous version.

As I've written before, even as a kid I had no trouble understanding that the b/w TARZAN movies with Johnny Weismuller, the new color movies, the Ron Ely TV show, the Gold Key comics, the Saturday morning cartoon, and the original novels by Edgar Rice Burroughs didn't take place in the same seamless, airtight TARZAN continuity. And this didn't bother me one bit.

Audiences are smarter than we sometimes give them credit for. They understand that everything gets rebooted and reworked over time. (I doubt that anyone watching the new SLEEPY HOLLOW is fretting because it's not set in the same "timeline" as the Tim Burton movie, the old Disney cartoon, or the original Washington Irving story.)

Different times, different timelines.
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Old November 6 2013, 09:20 PM   #584
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
There's a distinction between "not knowing" and "not caring." For the vast majority of potential viewers, a new timeline is hardly a deal-breaker. Restoring the old timeline is not a priority--nor should it be. And it's not because they're stupid. It's because they care more about the current plots, characters, etc. than stressing out about whether they're consistent with every previous version.

As I've written before, even as a kid I had no trouble understanding that the b/w TARZAN movies with Johnny Weismuller, the new color movies, the Ron Ely TV show, the Gold Key comics, the Saturday morning cartoon, and the original novels by Edgar Rice Burroughs didn't take place in the same seamless, airtight TARZAN continuity. And this didn't bother me one bit.
Yeah, I get that things get changed a bit over time. I enjoy Robin Hood, and have seen the Richard Greene series, Rocket Robin Hood, Robin of Sherwood, Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves, and Robin Hood: Men in Tights. With the exception of the cartoon, I still enjoy all those varieties, and don't worry that they have different origin stories for who Robin Hood was and exactly how he gathered his "merry men." Sometimes they differ as to which men were actually in his band, and in the Richard Greene series, Marian was played by two different actresses.

However, the Robin Hood story is a legend that's been around for many centuries, and every century's popular culture has reworked it to their own tastes. Star Trek hasn't stood that test of time, so any really noticeable changes from the original can be quite jarring.

As for the "don't know" vs "don't care"... please. I do know the difference. It's the "the audience is so dumb they won't KNOW the difference" attitude that angers me.
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Old November 6 2013, 09:44 PM   #585
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

BillJ wrote: View Post
CDR6 wrote: View Post
I'm with the Lynx on this one. So many possibilities in the prime-verse unexplored yet.
I'm not so sure. They were already to the point by Voyager that they were retelling stories and just gluing different pieces of rubber to actors foreheads to make "new" aliens.
But that was because the writers who had been around since the beginning of TNG had lost all inspiration. A new writing staff could come up with new ideas for the aliens we already have in the Primeverse plus a few more.
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