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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old November 5 2013, 04:37 PM   #61
Anwar
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

Does the machine also go into the future as well?

What if someone went into the future and saw that the world was about to be destroyed? What would they do then when they returned?
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Old November 5 2013, 05:06 PM   #62
Melakon
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

There's no evidence the Atavachron can send someone into the future.
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Old November 5 2013, 05:40 PM   #63
BillJ
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

Melakon wrote: View Post
There's no evidence the Atavachron can send someone into the future.
Well...

It obviously can at least bring people from the past to its "present".
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Old November 5 2013, 05:46 PM   #64
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

BillJ wrote: View Post
Melakon wrote: View Post
There's no evidence the Atavachron can send someone into the future.
Well...

It obviously can at least bring people from the past to its "present".
True, but it obviously can't send people beyond the nova, even if at earlier times the Library had disks of the future. But having disks of things yet to come doesn't really sound like a library any more.
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Old November 5 2013, 05:50 PM   #65
BillJ
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Melakon wrote: View Post
There's no evidence the Atavachron can send someone into the future.
Well...

It obviously can at least bring people from the past to its "present".
True, but it obviously can't send people beyond the nova, even if at earlier times the Library had disks of the future. But having disks of things yet to come doesn't really sound like a library any more.
Yeah. There being no planet past the time of the nova might throw a wrench in the works for whoever wanted to go forward.
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Old November 5 2013, 06:24 PM   #66
Anwar
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

Would've raised some eyebrows if some guys went to the future but never came back. The people would wonder why exactly no one ever comes back from beyond a certain era.
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Old November 5 2013, 06:43 PM   #67
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

Melakon wrote: View Post
There's no evidence the Atavachron can send someone into the future.
Since "Atavachron" is a coined Latin-Greek hybrid word that literally means "to regress in time," I assume that's what it does.
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Old November 5 2013, 07:12 PM   #68
Melakon
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

BillJ wrote: View Post
Melakon wrote: View Post
There's no evidence the Atavachron can send someone into the future.
Well...

It obviously can at least bring people from the past to its "present".
Though that might have something to do with not being "prepared", whatever that is.

And that's more of a rubber band effect, it's not sending someone forward with the machine from its current location.
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Old November 6 2013, 01:26 AM   #69
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
True, but it obviously can't send people beyond the nova, even if at earlier times the Library had disks of the future. But having disks of things yet to come doesn't really sound like a library any more.
On the other hand, if someone from, say, the last year of Sarpeidon sent discs linked to points from its recent past to somewhere in the more distant past … it's not clear to me that would prohibit the traveller in the far past from moving to her future/the disc's past.

This could create the Somewhere In Time style closed-time-loop paradox about where the library's discs come from, certainly.
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Old November 6 2013, 02:21 AM   #70
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

Nebusj wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
True, but it obviously can't send people beyond the nova, even if at earlier times the Library had disks of the future. But having disks of things yet to come doesn't really sound like a library any more.
On the other hand, if someone from, say, the last year of Sarpeidon sent discs linked to points from its recent past to somewhere in the more distant past … it's not clear to me that would prohibit the traveller in the far past from moving to her future/the disc's past.

This could create the Somewhere In Time style closed-time-loop paradox about where the library's discs come from, certainly.
That's clever, but maybe those disks wouldn't work, same as the phasers didn't work. Also, could be that preparing certain kinds of tech wouldn't help either. For example, maybe the phasers would stop working as soon as they were prepared.

scotpens wrote: View Post
Since "Atavachron" is a coined Latin-Greek hybrid word that literally means "to regress in time," I assume that's what it does.
Ah, thanks!

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/atavus
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/χρόνος#Ancient_Greek
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Old November 6 2013, 02:59 PM   #71
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
That's clever, but maybe those disks wouldn't work, same as the phasers didn't work. Also, could be that preparing certain kinds of tech wouldn't help either. For example, maybe the phasers would stop working as soon as they were prepared.
SPOCK: Sir, you are employing a double negative.

The phasers didn't work for Spock and McCoy, who had not been "prepared." Yet preparing anachronistic items will stop them from working? Huh?
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Old November 6 2013, 10:24 PM   #72
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

Metryq wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
That's clever, but maybe those disks wouldn't work, same as the phasers didn't work. Also, could be that preparing certain kinds of tech wouldn't help either. For example, maybe the phasers would stop working as soon as they were prepared.
SPOCK: Sir, you are employing a double negative.

The phasers didn't work for Spock and McCoy, who had not been "prepared." Yet preparing anachronistic items will stop them from working? Huh?
I expressed exactly what I meant. I said, "Also, could be that preparing certain kinds of tech wouldn't help either." There's no reason to conclude that the phasers must work, even if they were prepared.

That is to say, if someone wrote a sequel in which hand phasers didn't work even if they had been prepared, then that would be perfectly consistent and plausible based on everything we saw in the episode. No examples of them working after being prepared were shown in the episode, so it's wide open for how a sequel handles the question.

There are any number of reasons that could be imagined to justify this behavior, if needed. Just to name two off the top of my head: maybe the act of preparing phasers shorts out some key component immediately; perhaps the Atavachron is based on certain theories of physics in which values assumed to be physical constants aren't really constant.

And, for the record, the constructions of mine that you highlighted are not double negatives.
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Old November 8 2013, 05:34 AM   #73
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

Metryq wrote: View Post
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There is no single, definitive set of rules for time travel. It's a completely fictional premise that can work however a particular writer wants it to work for the purpose of their story.
If you read the arguments in the "City" thread, you wouldn't be making this statement. In short, I know it is fictional, which means writers must fall back on logic. If they toss that out the window, then they can't craft a logical series of events in their story, turning it on and off at will to suit their needs and using the audience as a punching bag. "Just because" would invalidate most, if not all, of the posts on this forum.
Here or there, you're presenting your opinion of how time travel should work as if it were some inviolable set of rules that all writers of time travel stories must follow...and guess what, they don't.
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Old November 8 2013, 05:47 AM   #74
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
. . .Just to name two off the top of my head: maybe the act of preparing phasers shorts out some key component immediately; perhaps the Atavachron is based on certain theories of physics in which values assumed to be physical constants aren't really constant. . .
Building off this idea, we can go further. We don't know what "preparing" actually does. Perhaps preparing weapons insures they are operable only within the time frame where that technology is available. A .45 pistol might work until a certain point in the past. If phaser technology was never invented on the planet, they might not work at all after going through the Atavachron.
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Old November 8 2013, 07:47 AM   #75
CorporalCaptain
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Re: 'All Our Yesterdays' theory

Melakon wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
. . .Just to name two off the top of my head: maybe the act of preparing phasers shorts out some key component immediately; perhaps the Atavachron is based on certain theories of physics in which values assumed to be physical constants aren't really constant. . .
Building off this idea, we can go further. We don't know what "preparing" actually does. Perhaps preparing weapons insures they are operable only within the time frame where that technology is available. A .45 pistol might work until a certain point in the past. If phaser technology was never invented on the planet, they might not work at all after going through the Atavachron.
Ah, yes, very good. In other words, what you're proposing is that perhaps part of the very function of the Atavachron is to preserve the integrity of the timeline. Very, very good. That explains quite a lot, including Spock's emotional regression.
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