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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old November 4 2013, 06:03 PM   #586
BigJake
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

I dunno, I always kind of thought taking itself seriously was one of TOS' gutsiest moves. Even where a story idea was wacky ("A Piece of the Action"), comedic ("Trouble With Tribbles") or just completely insane, they never tried to wink-and-nudge at the audience at the expense of the show's premise; it was always played within the bounds of "this is totally a show about the adventures of Earth's Space Navy," even when doing so was kind of humiliating ("Spock's Brain").
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Old November 4 2013, 06:39 PM   #587
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BigJake wrote: View Post
I dunno, I always kind of thought taking itself seriously was one of TOS' gutsiest moves. Even where a story idea was wacky ("A Piece of the Action"), comedic ("Trouble With Tribbles") or just completely insane, they never tried to wink-and-nudge at the audience at the expense of the show's premise; it was always played within the bounds of "this is totally a show about the adventures of Earth's Space Navy," even when doing so was kind of humiliating ("Spock's Brain").
Which is why I said "too seriously". Yes, there are definitely serious undertones to TOS and the subject matter at times could be very grim. But it had a definite "space cowboys" vibe to it that made it infectiously fun to watch. No matter how bad an episode was, that vibe made it worth watching.

TNG and the other spin-offs never had that vibe. They were deadly serious pretty much all the time (especially after Roddenberry left). They played far more as a straight drama with sci-fi trappings than TOS did.
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Old November 4 2013, 06:44 PM   #588
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
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If you'll notice, a lot of stuff that was meant to be serious was campy. I find Gunsmoke, Bonanza, Big Valley, Rifleman, Perry Mason, Ironside, Battlestar Galactica, Knight Rider, Baywatch are all campy. In the future I will see people say "Look how campy Law and Order is with that camera shaking all over place. Everyone has an accusing attitude. HEy look that guy on CSI miami always walks sideways".
One of the 20 something 'Entertainment Reporters' on cable mentioned that they thought TNG was way 'camper' than TOS. He was rating a TNG episode. When I look at that episode (a great one) I tend to agree.
I think TNG took itself far too seriously for a show about people flying through space wearing pajamas.


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Old November 4 2013, 06:58 PM   #589
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

BillJ wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
I dunno, I always kind of thought taking itself seriously was one of TOS' gutsiest moves. Even where a story idea was wacky ("A Piece of the Action"), comedic ("Trouble With Tribbles") or just completely insane, they never tried to wink-and-nudge at the audience at the expense of the show's premise; it was always played within the bounds of "this is totally a show about the adventures of Earth's Space Navy," even when doing so was kind of humiliating ("Spock's Brain").
Which is why I said "too seriously". Yes, there are definitely serious undertones to TOS and the subject matter at times could be very grim. But it had a definite "space cowboys" vibe to it that made it infectiously fun to watch. No matter how bad an episode was, that vibe made it worth watching.

TNG and the other spin-offs never had that vibe. They were deadly serious pretty much all the time (especially after Roddenberry left). They played far more as a straight drama with sci-fi trappings than TOS did.
I remember when Riker told Captain Jellico in "Chain of Command" that Jellico was taking all the fun out of everything. To this day I remember saying to myself after hearing that line, "You mean you were having fun?" They certainly didn't show it, often.

Of course, the differences in tone don't mean one version is better than the other. On their own terms, I liked TNG and really liked DS9. But the different vibes the shows gave off could explain why some who grew up TNG era fans and don't really know or follow TOS have a tough time feeling that the Abrams movies have captured the spirit of TOS for so many of us old timers. Kirk is a bigger than life action figure. No other Trek character has come close, since. Frankly, that's why I had a tough time with ENT. Even Archer, who should've been as gung-ho and bigger than life for action as Kirk, paled in comparison to Kirk's "let's have an adventure" attitude.
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Old November 4 2013, 07:11 PM   #590
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Franklin wrote: View Post
I remember when Riker told Captain Jellico in "Chain of Command" that Jellico was taking all the fun out of everything. To this day I remember saying to myself after hearing that line, "You mean you were having fun?" They certainly didn't show it, often.
Well, TNG did regularly show the crew hanging out in Ten Forward and/or subplots about socializing or indulgently guiding Data through his latest inquiry into humanity (the one where Holographic Joe Piscopo teaches him the meaning of comedy stands out in my mind). Not a habit of the show that I was all that into, really... but then I've recently discovered that there are also TNG fans who get chills from briefing-room scenes, so, different strokes.

But the different vibes the shows gave off could explain why some who grew up TNG era fans and don't really know or follow TOS have a tough time feeling that the Abrams movies have captured the spirit of TOS for so many of us old timers. Kirk is a bigger than life action figure. No other Trek character has come close, since.
While Kirk is undoubtedly a bigger-than-life action figure, I suspect these are separate questions. The feeling that the Abrams movies "captured the spirit" of TOS ain't exactly unanimous among TOS fans either, for varying reasons.
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Old November 4 2013, 08:13 PM   #591
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

This is why I rank DS9 the best of all the spin-offs because that one wasn't afraid to get into the kind of comedic romps that TOS would have. I think TNG could have used more of that, though I understand Berman was very afraid of trying to do that because of earlier attempts like "The Naked Now" falling flat on its face. I don't put down TNG too much for not having as much humor as I'd like, because it does really shine with its own great episodes and I do admire some of the more dry humor they attempted in the last two seasons such as Data giving Worf his cat to take care of in "Phantasms".
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Old November 4 2013, 08:24 PM   #592
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
This is why I rank DS9 the best of all the spin-offs because that one wasn't afraid to get into the kind of comedic romps that TOS would have. I think TNG could have used more of that, though I understand Berman was very afraid of trying to do that because of earlier attempts like "The Naked Now" falling flat on its face. I don't put down TNG too much for not having as much humor as I'd like, because it does really shine with its own great episodes and I do admire some of the more dry humor they attempted in the last two seasons such as Data giving Worf his cat to take care of in "Phantasms".
You're forgetting that TNG had quite a few of these over the years, they were just a lot better organized and mixed with serious content more fluidly. Take, for example, all of the Q episodes, all of the Luwaxana episodes, Vash, Picard talking down to the Sheliak, and the high tech shenanigans of Carmen Sandiego.

TNG didn't take itself TOO seriously, but it's true that (with the exception of "The Naked Now") it never really got into the realm of "campy."
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Old November 4 2013, 08:48 PM   #593
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Mycroft Maxwell wrote: View Post
6. Chekov - Yeah that is not Chekov...well he's Chekov, but he's not Pavel. He's Pavel's older brother...
This is really the only thing I can disagree with you about. I HATED Chekov in the TOS series, he was better in the movies though. Nu Chekov is better, but the character is supposed to be the most junior officer, so in order to wedge him in they had to make him this Doogie Hauser/Wesley Crusher genius boy. I actually would have preferred that they kept him out of the first movie.
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Old November 4 2013, 08:58 PM   #594
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
This is why I rank DS9 the best of all the spin-offs because that one wasn't afraid to get into the kind of comedic romps that TOS would have. I think TNG could have used more of that, though I understand Berman was very afraid of trying to do that because of earlier attempts like "The Naked Now" falling flat on its face. I don't put down TNG too much for not having as much humor as I'd like, because it does really shine with its own great episodes and I do admire some of the more dry humor they attempted in the last two seasons such as Data giving Worf his cat to take care of in "Phantasms".
You're forgetting that TNG had quite a few of these over the years, they were just a lot better organized and mixed with serious content more fluidly. Take, for example, all of the Q episodes, all of the Luwaxana episodes, Vash, Picard talking down to the Sheliak, and the high tech shenanigans of Carmen Sandiego.

TNG didn't take itself TOO seriously, but it's true that (with the exception of "The Naked Now") it never really got into the realm of "campy."
I'm not denying that they did throughout the whole deal, just that they didn't seem to embrace it as much as later seasons. You can tell they started to really loosen up with stuff like "A Fistful of Datas". Maybe I'm just thinking more of the certain touch that Moore, Braga, Menosky, Shankar brought, where it was quirky humor with a mix of surrealism. Other quirky stuff like Braga's "Punish Riker" thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhgTKMA3szQ

EDIT: I do love "Devil's Due", feels like classic TOS (for obvious reasons).
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Old November 4 2013, 09:38 PM   #595
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Star Trek is and always has been like that hole-in-the-wall, back alley diner where you walk in to vinyl booths with generic looking utensils, cheap plastic-dinnerware, those red and yellow ketchup and mustard squirt bottles, and salt and pepper shakers made out of baseball bobble heads were, when they serve you your food, it turns out to be the best God damned meal you've ever eaten.

Of course Star Trek is campy. It's grown men in pajamas shooting plastic ray guns at other grown men with rubber thingys on their heads.

Don't confuse content with packaging.
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Old November 4 2013, 11:06 PM   #596
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

All Star Trek has been campy. DS9 maybe had the least camp. TOS was camp incarnate. I guess that's why I like TNG on upwards because it's tolerable (although sometimes it's not) but Star Trek was a slightly more serious Star Wars.
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Old November 5 2013, 07:29 PM   #597
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Franklin wrote: View Post
Of course, the differences in tone don't mean one version is better than the other. On their own terms, I liked TNG and really liked DS9. But the different vibes the shows gave off could explain why some who grew up TNG era fans and don't really know or follow TOS have a tough time feeling that the Abrams movies have captured the spirit of TOS for so many of us old timers. Kirk is a bigger than life action figure. No other Trek character has come close, since. Frankly, that's why I had a tough time with ENT. Even Archer, who should've been as gung-ho and bigger than life for action as Kirk, paled in comparison to Kirk's "let's have an adventure" attitude.
QFT (IE sums up how I feel regarding the Abram's films, TOS and TNG. And I'm an old TOS fan who LOVES TOS (#1) and was watching first run episodes since 1969.)
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Old November 5 2013, 08:18 PM   #598
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Harbinger wrote: View Post
All Star Trek has been campy. DS9 maybe had the least camp. TOS was camp incarnate. I guess that's why I like TNG on upwards because it's tolerable (although sometimes it's not) but Star Trek was a slightly more serious Star Wars.
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Old November 5 2013, 08:28 PM   #599
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Anyone who can sit through several Ferengi episodes and claim there was "no camp" in DS9 needs their head examined.
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Old November 5 2013, 08:29 PM   #600
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Re: My Greivences of Nutrek. What makes me a hater...

Harbinger wrote: View Post
Star Trek was a slightly more serious Star Wars.
You know, to get a little serious for a sec, this is really not true*. Star Trek in fact had a very distinct feel from Star Wars for most of its run until (arguably, anyway) the advent of Abramstrek. Its episodes were written by a wide variety of SF writers who had very different sensibilities from "Doc" Smith whose Lensmen provided the template for the Star Wars universe. Star Wars was very much straight-ahead pulp fantasy; Star Trek was designed not to be straight-ahead anything, more like an SF framework for telling a wide variety of stories, and it retained something of that in most of its incarnations (even the weakest of them).

Nostalgic fans are given to over-selling how philosophically "deep" Trek used to be, but they're not wrong that it was once a readily distinguishable franchise.

(* At least - it's not true of the televised and movie product. The novelized and comic book output of the two franchises may have gotten closer or overlapped more.)
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