RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,629
Posts: 5,427,314
Members: 24,810
Currently online: 556
Newest member: Rom

TrekToday headlines

Trek Messenger Bag
By: T'Bonz on Sep 18

Star Trek Live In Concert In Australia
By: T'Bonz on Sep 18

IDW Publishing December Trek Comics
By: T'Bonz on Sep 17

September Loot Crate Features Trek Surprise
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

USS Enterprise Miniature Out For Refit
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

Star Trek/Planet of the Apes Comic Crossover
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

Trek 3 Shooting Next Spring?
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

Star Trek: Alien Domain Game Announced
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Red Shirt Diaries Episode Three
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Made Out Of Mudd Photonovel
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Welcome to the Trek BBS! > General Trek Discussion

General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 4 2013, 12:35 AM   #46
RandyS
Vice Admiral
 
RandyS's Avatar
 
Location: Randyland
View RandyS's Twitter Profile
Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

Noddy wrote: View Post
More like Starfleet is run by imbeciles. They seriously didn't think it was worth warning the fleet about, even after the "Regeneration" incident and the loss of the Hansens?

And why didn't Starfleet seem to be aware that the Borg assimilated lifeforms as well as technology in "The Best of Both Worlds", when Captain Archer found that out over two hundred years ago?
Because Regeneration was written 12 years after The Best of Both Worlds.

Nothing is planned out in advance.
RandyS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 4 2013, 04:03 AM   #47
Phanton
Lieutenant Junior Grade
 
Phanton's Avatar
 
Location: Andromeda
Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

Noddy wrote: View Post
According to Trek author Christopher Bennett (and assuming I understand him correctly), if time travel from the future results in changes made to the past, those changes are only carried through to the era the time travel originated in if the time travelers return to their era, or information travels from the altered past to the future in some manner.
If time the universe and everything is holographic and each persons ‘imagination-action’ entropy conduits shape the reflections from the decoherent field dynamic, in real terms does this allow one to experience more than one existence with multiple outcomes in the same moment? Would imagination be a governing factor of times arrow be it a lifeline to a kind of cosmic potential where the future is more certain than the past because of itself? Why not.

If we weave both the Trek and Real Universes’ with this thought then anything is possible anything can happen does happen and is allowed, objectively in holographic terms there need be no violation; just interference patterns on a largely unchanged canvas.
__________________
Make it so.
Trek Trance
Phanton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 4 2013, 04:10 AM   #48
Sran
Fleet Captain
 
Sran's Avatar
 
Location: The Captain's Table
Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

Noddy wrote: View Post
So how come Picard and co act like Starfleet has never encountered anything like the Borg in "Q Who?" ?
Because Starfleet officers don't know everything anymore than anyone else knows everything about their profession. The material pertaining to the Borg may have been classified and unavailable for Picard to access. It's possible he became aware of what happened at a later time, but wasn't aware when the events of "Q Who?" took place.

--Sran
__________________
"Many things seem clever to an imbecile." --Captain Thelin th'Valrass, USS Enterprise-- "The Chimes at Midnight"
Sran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 4 2013, 04:15 AM   #49
Sran
Fleet Captain
 
Sran's Avatar
 
Location: The Captain's Table
Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

Noddy wrote: View Post
I can't believe the Hansens were given all available info on the Borg while Picard, a starfleet captain in charge of the Federation flagship, was left in the dark. It just doesn't add up.
It's possible they stumbled across a small amount of leaked information and used it begin their search for the Borg. The Hansens were clearly bright people, albeit somewhat misguided.

And keep in mind that although Picard was important in the context of The Next Generation series, he was no more important than any other captain in Starfleet in-universe. Why would Starfleet have any reason to share with him classified data (assuming it was classified) about a species he'd never seen before?

--Sran
__________________
"Many things seem clever to an imbecile." --Captain Thelin th'Valrass, USS Enterprise-- "The Chimes at Midnight"
Sran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 4 2013, 04:22 AM   #50
Sran
Fleet Captain
 
Sran's Avatar
 
Location: The Captain's Table
Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

Nebusj wrote: View Post
But Noddy has a point. Riker and LaForge are, by the movie's own depiction, people who've studied Cochrane's life in obsessive detail. If Cochrane had an episode late in life when he ranted about cyborg aliens from the future come to kill him, they'd likely have at least heard of it even if it were just ``and we're embarrassed this great historical figure had a breakdown like that'', and when they travelled back in time to stop cyborgs from the future from killing Cochrane, yeah, it should've triggered some ``oh yeah'' memories and a moment of ``I guess he was wiser than we even guessed''.
Why would they have heard about that? Just because they studied Cochrane's life in detail doesn't mean they know every single thing that happened to him. A drunken rant like that would probably be passed off as rumor or innuendo than something worthy of serious consideration by Starfleet officers, if they'd have thought about it at all. Riker and LaForge were both taken aback by Cochrane's behavior throughout FC because the man didn't match up with the legend, at least not until he conducted his warp flight and helped bring about their future. Seeing his home planet from space for the first time was clearly a turning point for Cochrane, as he didn't resemble the legendary figure he was depicted as prior to that.

It's unlikely either man would've known about the incident in question, and even if they did, it doesn't necessarily mean they'd have connected it with the events of FC despite their being there.

--Sran
__________________
"Many things seem clever to an imbecile." --Captain Thelin th'Valrass, USS Enterprise-- "The Chimes at Midnight"
Sran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 4 2013, 04:29 AM   #51
Sran
Fleet Captain
 
Sran's Avatar
 
Location: The Captain's Table
Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
I think it wasn't until after the Enterprise-D's encounter with them that the Borg became known to everyone and ceased being a rumor known to just a few.
I agree with this. It's entirely possible there were rumors swirling about cybernetic beings from another part of the galaxy, but without any proof of their existence (as far as Picard or anyone else was aware), there would have been no reason to take the rumors seriously.

Rumors about strange aliens crash-landing on Earth would be a big deal in our society because we've never encountered anything like that (that we know of), but for Starfleet officers whose lives revolve around all sorts of weird things, rumors about a race like the Borg wouldn't be much of anything to get excited about. Things changed after "Q Who?" because Picard realized the significance of the Borg threat, but to suggest that he'd have known anything about the Collective before is hard to believe.

--Sran
__________________
"Many things seem clever to an imbecile." --Captain Thelin th'Valrass, USS Enterprise-- "The Chimes at Midnight"
Sran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 4 2013, 04:36 AM   #52
Sran
Fleet Captain
 
Sran's Avatar
 
Location: The Captain's Table
Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
But it's not really inconsistent with Starfleet's mission at all. There really wasn't much information about the Borg for Starfleet to go on at the time, except second-hand accounts from the El-Aurians (who may not even have known where the Borg originated from or where they vanished to over seventy years earlier).
Exactly. And Starfleet's resources weren't infinite. Like any other organization, they'd have to prioritize certain missions and projects to which their resources would be devoted. It's simply not good decision-making to utilize significant time and labor to chase down a centuries-old rumor without any current evidence that might give the rumor credibility. Now, once Picard and the Enterprise saw the Borg for themselves, it's possible someone at Starfleet made a connection and began devising solutions to the Borg problem. For all we know, that person may have been none other than Elizabeth Shelby, who was so important in helping thwart the attack on the Federation the following year.

--Sran
__________________
"Many things seem clever to an imbecile." --Captain Thelin th'Valrass, USS Enterprise-- "The Chimes at Midnight"
Sran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 4 2013, 04:40 AM   #53
Sran
Fleet Captain
 
Sran's Avatar
 
Location: The Captain's Table
Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

^As a follow-up to my above points, also consider the following:

The events of "The Neutral Zone" and the deadly force that Picard surmised was more powerful than either the Federation or the Romulans. It's likely Picard's hypothesis didn't make sense to anyone at the time it was postulated, but once the Collective was discovered, it became another piece of the Borg puzzle. Bits and pieces of information don't always make sense until they can be linked together to form something more complete. Strange cybernetic beings in and off themselves doesn't necessarily equal the Borg without more information.

--Sran
__________________
"Many things seem clever to an imbecile." --Captain Thelin th'Valrass, USS Enterprise-- "The Chimes at Midnight"
Sran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 4 2013, 04:52 AM   #54
GameOn
Lieutenant Commander
 
GameOn's Avatar
 
Location: UK
Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

There's far too much mental gymnastics involved in explaining all the continuity errors in Enterprise. In reality it's down to poor writing but in universe the best and most reasonable explanation to me is that it takes place in a different universe. Some people complain that the problems are no worse than the stuff in TOS but at the time TOS wasn't working with an established universe, Enterprise didn't have this excuse.
GameOn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 4 2013, 01:56 PM   #55
Edit_XYZ
Fleet Captain
 
Edit_XYZ's Avatar
 
Location: At star's end.
Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

Actually, Enterprise had better in universe continuity than TNG and Voyager.
And FAR better in universe continuity than TOS (the ~'TOS wasn't/didn't really care much about being in a self consistent universe' excuse being both unconvincing and irrelevant).
__________________
"Let truth and falsehood grapple ... Truth is strong" - John Milton
Edit_XYZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 4 2013, 02:35 PM   #56
Dimesdan
Rear Admiral
 
Dimesdan's Avatar
 
Location: The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Dimesdan
Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

Sran, learn to use multiquote, six posts in a really short timeframe is bad form.
__________________
People in third world countries are so lucky they don't have to deal with these problems. - TheGodBen

I'm on twitter now. @DimesDaniel
Dimesdan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old November 4 2013, 06:31 PM   #57
Sran
Fleet Captain
 
Sran's Avatar
 
Location: The Captain's Table
Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

Dimesdan wrote: View Post
Sran, learn to use multiquote, six posts in a really short timeframe is bad form.
I know how to use the multiquote. The reason for my multiple replies was because I was responding to specific points one post at a time. Thank you.

--Sran
__________________
"Many things seem clever to an imbecile." --Captain Thelin th'Valrass, USS Enterprise-- "The Chimes at Midnight"
Sran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 4 2013, 07:46 PM   #58
E-DUB
Captain
 
Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

During an episode the title of which escapes me, Picard references Pearl Harbor and "Station Salem One" as examples of "sneak attacks". I really think that if he were part of the same timeline as the events in ENT, he wouldn't have not mentioned the Xindi attack on Florida.
E-DUB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 4 2013, 07:57 PM   #59
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England again
Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

GameOn wrote: View Post
There's far too much mental gymnastics involved in explaining all the continuity errors in Enterprise. In reality it's down to poor writing but in universe the best and most reasonable explanation to me is that it takes place in a different universe. Some people complain that the problems are no worse than the stuff in TOS but at the time TOS wasn't working with an established universe, Enterprise didn't have this excuse.
TOS has a series bible, detailing the workings of the Enterprise and it's universe (a version of which can be found in The Making of Star Trek), so they've no excuse for their mistakes and should be judged just the same as the rest.

And furthermore TOS is Star Trek. The original, definitive article. TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT are spin-offs made by others decades later.

Voyager references the events of Star Trek: First Contact, as does Enterprise. Does that make Voyager part of this FC/ENT AU also? It crosses over at one time or another with TOS, TNG and DS9, so what does it make those? There's a lot more evidence that all these series' are interconnected than there is that they're separate timelines. Was that meant to be an alternate Riker who testified at Quinn's trial? Another Sulu which Tuvok flashed back to? Or a different Dominion that EMH Mk. 2 mentioned? No way. Just like the Federation which Archer founded at the end of Enterprise is the same one we see in the rest of the series and not some other version - if it was, it would completely undermine the entire premise of the show as a prequel to the Trek universe.

E-DUB wrote: View Post
During an episode the title of which escapes me, Picard references Pearl Harbor and "Station Salem One" as examples of "sneak attacks". I really think that if he were part of the same timeline as the events in ENT, he wouldn't have not mentioned the Xindi attack on Florida.
You'd think Data would have known about "The Immunity Syndrome" when the Enterprise came across "a hole in space" in "Where Silence has Lease" (and Riker even asked him, point blank, if anything "even remotely similar" had been previously encountered!)
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 4 2013, 09:11 PM   #60
Dimesdan
Rear Admiral
 
Dimesdan's Avatar
 
Location: The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Dimesdan
Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

Sran wrote: View Post
Thank you.
Not a problem. Just didn't want you to get an infraction for spamming.
__________________
People in third world countries are so lucky they don't have to deal with these problems. - TheGodBen

I'm on twitter now. @DimesDaniel
Dimesdan is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:10 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.