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Old November 3 2013, 06:15 PM   #31
TheSubCommander
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

I'm of the belief that Enterprise and the Temporal Cold War and Xindi Arc events created the Abrams timeline, even before Nero and Spock altered that timeline further, because of how advanced the Kelvin is compared to the original TOS Enterprise, and the events of Enterprise occurred without the Temporal Cold War and the Xindi Arc lead us to TOS\TNG\DS9\VOY.

After all, the only thing in Trek to survive the Abrams reboot was Enterprise.
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Old November 3 2013, 06:53 PM   #32
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

Rather then the events depicted in Enterprise changing the universe of TOS and TNG, it might be more likely that the events of Enterprise would be erased, preserving the timeline of TOS and TNG. The Temporal Cold War was depicted as occurring on several fronts. The 22nd century was far minor compared to the 31st century. What Archer does likely strengthens the position of the Federation in the 31st century (certainly by guaranteeing its existence). Nonetheless, victory in the conflict would have to be seen from the perspective of the Federation in 31st century, and presumably, it would attempt to restore as much of the timeline as possible when it can. At the very least, the shape of the 23rd and 24th centuries would reflect more the events of the 31st century that the 22nd.

Possible consequence: we can blame Daniels for Orci and Abrams.
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Old November 3 2013, 07:08 PM   #33
F. King Daniel
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

George Steinbrenner wrote: View Post
Unspeakable wrote: View Post
GameOn wrote: View Post
... according to Daniels the Xindi attack never happened in the original timeline ...
In the prime timeline, there isn't a chasm down the middle of Florida.


And how do we know this? We don't, of course.

I mean, Florida was never even mentioned, let alone seen, in all of trek prior to this time. So for all we know, Florida-TOS *did* have that chasm in it.
Even if Florida was seen in TOS or TNG, they've had ample time to fill in the chasm and restore everything.

TheSubCommander wrote:
I'm of the belief that Enterprise and the Temporal Cold War and Xindi Arc events created the Abrams timeline, even before Nero and Spock altered that timeline further, because of how advanced the Kelvin is compared to the original TOS Enterprise, and the events of Enterprise occurred without the Temporal Cold War and the Xindi Arc lead us to TOS\TNG\DS9\VOY.

After all, the only thing in Trek to survive the Abrams reboot was Enterprise.
Is the Kelvin advanced? It was big and had a lot of shuttles, but I don't see anything beyond what TOS Trek had or what could have been built 30+years prior. The NX-class looks far more modern than the TOS Constitution-class, but as we saw in "In a Mirror, Darkly" they're no match.
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Old November 3 2013, 08:27 PM   #34
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

I personally think ENT is AU because of all the TCW shenanigans.

Compare episode TNG season 4 x 15 First Contact with ENT 1 x 01 and 02 Broken bow. In the TNG episode Picard says that first contact with the Klingons led to decades of war. Yet if you watch Broken Bow, there is nothing resembling a preamble to war.
*Interfence by the Suliban and Future Guy can be blamed for the discrepancy of the history Picard recites and what we actually see in the epiosde Broken Bow.*

In ENT 3 x 11 Carpenter Street, Daneils tells Archer that history doesn't mention anything about a conflict between humans and Xindi. Quoting Daniels to Archer: "The events that are taking place are a result of temporal incursion. They are not supposed to be happening".

ENT 3 x 18 Azati Prime, Daniels shows Archer the war between the Federation and the Sphere builders in the 26th century. Daniels lays out the motive for the Sphere Builders meddling with time. The Sphere builders are on the losing side of a war with the Fed and Xindi. The Sphere builders decided to use time travel to usurp established history and use the Xindi in the 22nd century to destroy Earth. This would be before Earth and the Xindi had ever made first contact and before Xindi joined the Fed.

*The of meddling by TCW factions can be used to explain why we the audience and characters in TOS-TNG-DS9-VOY never heard of the events and aliens that we saw take place in the first 3 seasons of ENT. To borrow a line from Doctor Who, "Time can be rewritten". That is exactly what we see happening in ENT. This (and other things) IMO should classify ENT as an AU series.


With regards to the Borg, FC, Regeneration, Year of Hell and Relativity thing. *deep breath* Think about it this way.

Regeneration is obviously a sequel to FC. There are no problems there. Time travel adventures can leave things behind in the past. Similar to the arm of the Terminator in the 1984 film and the sequel T2.

The problem is 7 of 9's statement in the episodes YOH and Relativity. Where she says the Borg were present during the events of FC. Ignoring that episode Regeneration and ENT the series had not been conceived yet. I maintain there is no way 7 of 9 can know that. The dish the Borg were constructing to contact the collective in 2063 was destroyed by Picard and Worf BEFORE they could send a message out. You can literally watch FC and then YOH and Relativity and scratch your head wondering HOW 7 of 9 knew that. It has been said before that Regeneration's inclusion "fixes" the gaffe. However at the time when Relativity was written, 1999. It's obliviously a mistake by the writers in an attempt to sound meta. They should've gone back and actually watched FC before referencing it.

Other gaffes in Relativity include"

The first time the Doctor was activated. The Doctor himself says he was first activated during the Caretaker situation, in the episode 'Projections'. 'Relativity' contradicts that.

In "Future's End', Captain Braxton says he has no memories of being stranded in the 20th century. Yet in 'Relativity' he says he does remember that life.

In 'Caretaker' Janeway says she wants Tom Paris to help her find the Maqui. In 'Relativity' it's changed to wanting him for his piloting skills. Despite him never piloting the ship in the Badlands. VOY had a pilot in Caretaker episode. She died because of the displacement wave transporting VOY to the DQ.


These are continuity errors present in one series complied in ONE episode. Were the writers and producers too busy to actually watch the episodes they were attempting to reference?


Lastly the pogo paradox/predestination paradox thing applied to FC via Relativity doesn't hold water for me.
Compare time travel in FC to time travel in Terminator 1984 for example. The machines//skynet send a Terminator back in time to kill Sarah Connor before she gives birth to John Connor. John Connor sends his own father, Kyle Reese in to the past to protect, fall in love, and have intercourse with his mother. Kye also gave Sarah massive amounts of spoilers about the coming war which would ensure she would train John. This would ensure that John himself would be born to fight the machines.

This is a causality loop. Kyle Reese does not exist in 1984. He hadn't even been born yet. If he never time traveled to the past, then Sarah Connor wouldve died and never gotten pregnant with John. Also if the machines/Skynet had never sent that first Terminator in to the past to kill Sarah, then John Connor of the future would've never sent Kyle Reese to the past. The future John created himself via casualty loop in a sense. While the rise of the machines would be explored later in T2 and T3 with use of more time travel.


Compare to FC where Zefram Cochrane was already planning to conduct his warp flight on schedule. The then Borg show up and act like time traveling saboteurs on Cochrane's camp and bunker. In one timeline the Borg succeeded in assimilating all of Earth. In another timeline the ENT-E and her crew travelled back in time and thwarted the Borg. They tried to minimize the temporal incursions damage as much as they could but people died, Cochrane saw the ENT-E, Lily saw the Borg, and well as future tech onboard the ENT-E the crew of the ENT-E gave out massive amounts of spoilers to Cochrane about his future, and the future of Earth.

*it;s funny because Cochrane tried to run away from his destiny after hearing all the details the crew of the ENT-E told him. Riker had to shoot Cochrane and drag him in to the cockpit of the Phoenix just to ensure history would fold out the way it's recorded. You don't need the Borg to sabotage history. The ENT-E crew violating the temporal prime directive can destroy it all by themselves lol.


I digress. However the point i'm trying to make is that the Borg's incursion was not a predestination or casualty loop when compared to time travel mechanics in Terminator. The events in FC fit more in line with what we see in ENT with the Xindi arc, ST09 with Nero and Spock, TNG Yesterday's Enterprise, DS9's Children Of Time, and VOY's Timeless or Endgame. One timeline of events that was supplanted and erased by another timeline of events due to revision by use of time travel.
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Old November 3 2013, 09:02 PM   #35
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

Noddy wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Melakon wrote:
You can explain that by saying it was on a "need to know" basis. Until Q shot the Enterprise into the Delta Quadrant, Picard had "no need to know".
That could work too. Even Starfleet has big things that are classified to all but those with the highest security clearance, IMO.
I can't believe the Hansens were given all available info on the Borg while Picard, a starfleet captain in charge of the Federation flagship, was left in the dark.
Actually, at the time, Picard was still commanding a little known ship called the Stargazer.
It just doesn't add up.
Sure, it does. The Borg simply weren't well known to everyone in Starfleet--at the time, they were just one of probably many rumored dangerous races that had yet to be officially contacted (that honor still goes to the Enterprise-D).
Elias Vaughn in a Mask wrote:
Why would Starfleet connect mechanical remains found in the arctic that couldn't beat one NX class ship to the cube that massacred nearly 40 Starfleet ships? There's more than one cybernetic race around.

Starfleet didn't go searching for the Borg for the same reason the US government today doesn't go searching for Bigfoot - it was just a rumor. The Hansens were like the 24th century version of the people who bring cameras into the woods in the hope that they can find a picture of the Abominable Snowman to sell to tabloids, at least in Starfleet's opinion.
Couldn't have said it better.

I think it wasn't until after the Enterprise-D's encounter with them that the Borg became known to everyone and ceased being a rumor known to just a few.
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Old November 3 2013, 09:17 PM   #36
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

M.A.C.O. wrote: View Post
The problem is 7 of 9's statement in the episodes YOH and Relativity. Where she says the Borg were present during the events of FC.
The collective would have been in contact with the sphere and known that it was going to travel back in time to stop first contact.

M.A.C.O. wrote: View Post
Lastly the pogo paradox/predestination paradox thing applied to FC via Relativity doesn't hold water for me.
Same here and it would be inconsistent with the DS9 episode "Past Tense" where Sisko clearly changes history when he replaces Gabriel Bell.
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Old November 3 2013, 09:27 PM   #37
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

[QUOTE=GameOn;8845819]
M.A.C.O. wrote: View Post
The problem is 7 of 9's statement in the episodes YOH and Relativity. Where she says the Borg were present during the events of FC.
The collective would have been in contact with the sphere and known that it was going to travel back in time to stop first contact.

Remember the plan was to assimilate Earth in the present. Using the sphere and time travel was IMO something the Borg came up with on the fly, after their massive cube was destroyed.

The big plot hole of FC is that the Borg could've stayed in the DQ and used a time sphere to travel back in time there and THEN assimilated Earth in the past. It's a solid plan, and from FC we see that it can work. Why the Borg never tried to do it again all throughout VOY is beyond me.
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Old November 3 2013, 09:31 PM   #38
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

Elias Vaughn in a Mask wrote: View Post
Starfleet didn't go searching for the Borg for the same reason the US government today doesn't go searching for Bigfoot - it was just a rumor. The Hansens were like the 24th century version of the people who bring cameras into the woods in the hope that they can find a picture of the Abominable Snowman to sell to tabloids, at least in Starfleet's opinion.
This would be pretty inconstant with Starfleets mission to seek out new life and to defend the Federation.

Last edited by GameOn; November 3 2013 at 10:19 PM. Reason: Fixed quote
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Old November 3 2013, 09:37 PM   #39
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

M.A.C.O. wrote: View Post
Remember the plan was to assimilate Earth in the present. Using the sphere and time travel was IMO something the Borg came up with on the fly, after their massive cube was destroyed.

The big plot hole of FC is that the Borg could've stayed in the DQ and used a time sphere to travel back in time there and THEN assimilated Earth in the past. It's a solid plan, and from FC we see that it can work. Why the Borg never tried to do it again all throughout VOY is beyond me.
I've always wondered... was FC before or after Voyager got back home??

And as to why the Borg didn't try again, it failed the first time, and the Borg don't think like "if at first you don't succeed, try again." To them, if it didn't work the first time, it will never work.
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Old November 3 2013, 09:40 PM   #40
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

M.A.C.O. wrote: View Post
GameOn wrote: View Post
M.A.C.O. wrote: View Post
The problem is 7 of 9's statement in the episodes YOH and Relativity. Where she says the Borg were present during the events of FC.
The collective would have been in contact with the sphere and known that it was going to travel back in time to stop first contact.
Remember the plan was to assimilate Earth in the present. Using the sphere and time travel was IMO something the Borg came up with on the fly, after their massive cube was destroyed.

The big plot hole of FC is that the Borg could've stayed in the DQ and used a time sphere to travel back in time there and THEN assimilated Earth in the past. It's a solid plan, and from FC we see that it can work. Why the Borg never tried to do it again all throughout VOY is beyond me.
Yeah the sphere going back in time was plan B. Assimilating Earth in the past wouldn't be of much benefit seeing as the Borg want technology. What it would do is give them a foothold in the alpha quadrant so they could assimilate anyone else at will.
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Old November 3 2013, 09:42 PM   #41
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

Going back into the past, then travelling to Earth, would give ample time for any temporal policing authority to intervene. The Borg would be telegraphing their intentions.
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Old November 3 2013, 09:54 PM   #42
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

GameOn wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Starfleet didn't go searching for the Borg for the same reason the US government today doesn't go searching for Bigfoot - it was just a rumor. The Hansens were like the 24th century version of the people who bring cameras into the woods in the hope that they can find a picture of the Abominable Snowman to sell to tabloids, at least in Starfleet's opinion.
This would be pretty inconstant with Starfleets mission to seek out new life and to defend the Federation.
You quoted the wrong person (Elias Vaughn in a Mask said that).

But it's not really inconsistent with Starfleet's mission at all. There really wasn't much information about the Borg for Starfleet to go on at the time, except second-hand accounts from the El-Aurians (who may not even have known where the Borg originated from or where they vanished to over seventy years earlier).
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Old November 3 2013, 09:54 PM   #43
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

M.A.C.O. wrote: View Post
The problem is 7 of 9's statement in the episodes YOH and Relativity. Where she says the Borg were present during the events of FC.
But would Seven have "known" this prior to the events of First Contact?

Prior to FC was that information missing from her and all Borg , because it never happen ... until after the timeline changed.

M.A.C.O. wrote: View Post
In the TNG episode Picard says that first contact with the Klingons led to decades of war. Yet if you watch Broken Bow, there is nothing resembling a preamble to war.
It's possible that Picard was not referring the first contact between Kilngons and Humans, but instead between the Klingons and another species who would later become a federation member. Picard daily drinks the federation kool-aid.

GameOn wrote: View Post
except second-hand accounts from the El-Aurians (who may not even have known where the Borg come from or where they vanished to).
The El-Aurians who survived might not have known at the time who it was who was destroying them, Guinan could have come by that information in later years through listening to others stories.

She put the pieces together.

Regeneration is obviously a sequel to FC. There are no problems there. Time travel adventures can leave things behind in the past. Similar to the arm of the Terminator in the 1984 film and the sequel T2.
Time travel can change the established timeline, instead of things being left behind, exist objecs can be removed. In Yester year, Spock pet was killed when he was seven tears old, but in the unaltered prime time line the pet didn't die at that time (possibly surviving through Spock's adult years).

Upon return to the present, Spock noted that the pet hadn't alway died at that time. It wasn't a predestined loop.


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Old November 3 2013, 10:10 PM   #44
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

Unspeakable wrote: View Post
GameOn wrote: View Post
except second-hand accounts from the El-Aurians (who may not even have known where the Borg come from or where they vanished to).
The El-Aurians who survived might not have known at the time who it was who was destroying them, Guinan could have come by that information in later years through listening to others stories.

She put the pieces together.
Actually, you're quoting me, not GameOn.

But yeah, it's possible that it wasn't until sometime after the destruction of their world that Guinan and Soran learned the Borg were responsible for it (being from a race of listeners scattered across the Galaxy, El-Aurians may know many things that the Federation has yet to learn).
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Old November 3 2013, 10:18 PM   #45
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Re: Temporal Cold War and the rest of Trek history

Picard: Yes, I... I remember you. You were there all the time. But... that ship... and all the Borg on it were destroyed...

Borg Queen: You think in such three-dimensional terms.
This is probably the key magic handwave line. Any explanation we can come up with, would be too primitive compared to Borg concepts of space and time.
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